Wolverine, Part 2: Mutant Boogaloo

Nov-13-08

Okay, John and I have established what seems to be a rather easy and understandable way to reduce Wolverine’s ridiculously overblown powers. This reduction (and temporary loss) of powers will instill some emotion into Wolverine, and will allow him to show the slight weakness and trepidation necessary for a believable and long-lasting hero.

However, while we’ve managed to clear up the physical part of what has caused Wolverine to be a bit much, we still haven’t really rectified the historical parts of the character. His origin has been established, but all the other little bits thrown in make his entire backstory a royal mess. And it seems like every writer, who has worked on either his solo title or one of the team books he regularly appears in, wants to throw their own two cents into the pot. I’m not really sure if there’s anything we can do to sweep up the mess, but it’s worth talking about.

Then there’s the subject of rogues galleries and supporting casts. I think we should at least briefly discuss his tenure with the X-Men and how they’ve affected his life. Then we can discuss the implications for his solo title. This would also cover the fact that he’s extremely overused in the Marvel Universe (that’s the bad kind of extreme, not the cool XTREME!) and something needs to be done to fix that too.

So, let’s begin. Here’s my opening statement: Wolverine. What’s up with that?

I consider myself to be a pretty obsessive comics geek, and I have an amazing knowledge of the histories of the major characters from many comics universes….and I’m sure I couldn’t actually recite much of Wolverine’s origin without missing or confusing entire chunks of it. He was originally created as a man with a mysterious past, which worked perfectly for his personality as the tough, silent loner. Unfortunately, it seems subsequent writers have taken this nebulous past as a challenge to fill it with tales, some of which contradict each other. Matters are made worse by the fact that Wolverine’s healing factor is now said to slow his aging, giving him a much longer lifespan than normal; this gives writers even more undocumented time to fill with unimportant, trite stories.

Some writers, when confronted with this sea of mismatched facts for a character, will go out of their way to explain the discrepancies. Heck, that’s been happening since the 1970s, when Steve Englehart used his Celestial Madonna saga in The Avengers to explain some of the discrepancies in the Vision and the original Human Torch’s origins, as well as other bits of continuity. Kurt Busiek (with some help from Roger Stern) did the same thing in the Avengers Forever limited series; that was basically twelve issues of continuity explanations. John Byrne does this sort of thing all the time, perhaps most notable in his Wonder Woman run. Now, I have respect for all of the creators I just named, but I have to say, I don’t agree with that theory. Yes, we could come up with some sort of long, detailed explanation for how Wolverine’s origin actually fits together, and publish it as a special one-shot or a limited series (since, God knows, Wolverine doesn’t star in enough books). However, I think the better way to go is to just start ignoring it. Do a quick and pared down origin for Wolverine, run it as a quick flashback in the first issue of your run, and just move on. I find that stories that attempt to explain continuity fail in two ways: first, they tend to be very heavy on exposition, and consequently, they tend to be a little boring; and second, they are completely impenetrable to the casual reader. Cynics may say comics no longer have casual readers, and they’re probably right, but I see no reason to try and exclude any few that wander into the hobby.

I think the down and dirty origin just needs to hit a few highlights: Born James Howlett in the 1800s, he was the son of rich plantation owners. He left the plantation and took the name Logan. He eventually joins the Canadian military and then moves to Madripoor for a time. He then becomes a mercenary until he rejoins the Canadian military as a member of Team X. He’s kidnapped, has his bones laced with adamantium, and is rescued by the Hudsons, who convince him to join Alpha Flight. He skips out on them to join the X-Men. That’s a concise origin that hits all the high points, and it isn’t needlessly convoluted. It’s long, but he’s over a hundred years old (can I say how stupid I think that idea is? I think he works much better if he’s no older than 60) so he’s going to have a lot on his resume.

Does that work for you?

Your precision is commendable. I agree that the concept of Wolverine being centuries-old is not only laughable, but highly unrelatable. You make a lot of sense with the “ignore it” approach though. Most of the dumb stories related over the years about the character have no real bearing on who he is anyway. They were jsut a way for the writer to feel like he contributed something. But…

What if a lot of those stories were just flat-out untrue? What if Wolverine was just one of those guys, like a goofy uncle or an insecure schoolboy, who made up tall tales to both impress and confuse people? Granted, it’s pretty easy to confirm the points that you’ve made in your concise summary of his origin, but all the other little things could either be lies or just things that he thinks he’s remembering…either to repress the true memories that are too painful or maybe they were planted there by the Weapon X folks to block out his real past.

Probably a bit convoluted, but it would reveal a lot if we discovered that Wolverine was a big, fat liar.

Sure, he’s older than he looks. He has ties to Captain America and Nick Fury. And he married some chick in Japan. But some of his solo stories have been told with no supporting evidence…just Wolverine out on his own, doing what he does best, with no one to confirm or deny the exploits. What if he never actually fought Hulk in his first appearance? What if someone tracked down a few of these villains he says he’s faced and they don’t even know who he is? What if the whole Patch thing was just a fever dream?

That would be kind of funny.

And sad.

Anyway, I agree that most of that junk need never see the light of day again. Good comic readers should be able to block that garbage out (if they haven’t already). Funny aside: Earlier today I was reading a post over on Topless Robot about the awful stories in the Spider-Man Clone Saga. And I don’t remember any of them! I’m soooooo glad my brain was able to delete those from the IQ files.

So, with his history satisfyingly ignored, we should move on to Wolverine’s friends and enemies. You’ve already briefly mentioned the Alpha Flight and Department H folks who rescued Wolverine from obscurity. How did he happen upon the X-Men though? Aside from the movie version, I don’t remember that part of the story. Let’s talk a bit about the various members of the X-Men and how he interacts with them. We all know about the on-again off-again love triangle with Jean Grey and Cyclops. Then there’s the quasi-mentor relationship he had with Jubilee. What else though? How is he perceived overall by the X-Men family? Other mutants? Other heroes in the Marvel Universe?

One quick point to make on his origin. You mentioned the idea that some of those stories detailing his past were implanted memories, or tall tales that Logan has spun. I originally had considered trying to explain away some of his backstory, since I dislike so much of it, and return him to a simpler character. Unfortunately, much of what I came up with didn’t make him simpler, but just more convoluted. Still, I had one idea that I kind of liked….

What if the story of James Hewlett is all true….but he wasn’t Wolverine? The oldest stories in Wolverine’s origin are the hardest to confirm, and some of what happened to Hewlett may be true, but in actuality, Hewlett lived his own life for years, until meeting Wolverine in the 1930s, when Wolverine would have been very young (say late teens at the most) and Hewlett was old. Hewlett told Wolverine tales of his life, and Wolverine basically assumed his identity when Hewlett died. You could work this into your idea that Wolverine is a big fat liar, and I do think it makes the character more interesting. However, besides making that stupid Origin miniseries completely pointless, I can’t ever see it flying with Marvel brass. Too bad.

As for Wolverine and the X-Men, he joined them because Xavier recruited him to go rescue his original students from Krakoa. I don’t believe they had ever met before, but that’s where he enters the mythology. Originally, they said that he left Alpha Flight for the X-Men because he was bored, but later on it was revealed he was in love with Heather Hudson and didn’t want that to come between him and her husband (the first time he fell in love with the wife of the team leader; he really is rather a creepy old guy, isn’t he?).

As for how he fits into the X-Men family, I’m not sure at present. For years he was the rowdy, almost psychotic scrapper and he was close to all of the new X-Men who joined up to fight Krakoa. He had a bond with Storm, Nightcrawler, Colossus and Banshee and the five of them were pretty tight. He was very much disliked by Iceman and Angel, and the enmity with Angel, at the very least, lasted for at least ten or fifteen years. By the time the new X-Men team began to split up and new members began to arrive, Wolverine had become such a popular character that everyone seemed to like him. New members rarely treated him like a crazy man who could fly into berserker rages, and indeed, that rarely happened anymore anyway. Even Kitty Pryde, when she first appeared, seemed more frightened of Nightcrawler than she was of Wolverine. I’ll admit that Nightcrawler looks odd, but he’s almost always drawn as blue, fuzzy and kind of cute. Wolverine is a short, hairy, cigar smoking, brusque terror, and I think he’d be a heck of a lot more scary to a young girl than someone who looks like an animated stuffed animal.

In fact, I’d like to take this opportunity to stop and mention how the insistence at Marvel of pairing Wolverine up with young girls (first Shadowcat and then Jubilee) is the wrong move for the character. I understand that they’re trying to portray Wolverine as the gruff uncle with the heart of gold, but honestly, he should simply be the gruff uncle. When Wolverine first appeared, he was a scary, violent little man with razor sharp claws. He had enough trouble associating with the adults on the team, never mind the teenagers. However, as he became more popular, his persona softened. He rarely lost his temper (unless it was integral to the plot). He became more friendly and spent time with the rest of the team. And he became the mentor to every other young girl to be recruited. Personally, I think they should have kept him standoffish, particularly to the younger members. Sure, let him bond with some of the other adults, but don’t make him a den mother. First of all, I still find it hard to believe that young girls wouldn’t be scared half to death by him. Second, he’s the quintessential loner; it’s hard enough to sell that when he belongs to two of the largest teams in the Marvel Universe. It becomes an impossible concept to convey when he’s got sidekicks.

And along those lines, the enmity he had with Iceman and Angel has also disappeared over the years. To an extent, that’s fine; these guys have to work together, and more importantly, watch each other’s backs in life and death situations. It’s natural that they would bond over the years. Still, Wolverine has one of the most grating personalities in the Marvel Universe. Surely there are going to be some mutants who really aren’t fond of him. He should have personality conflicts with at least some of the members of the X-Men, and unless I’m wrong, he doesn’t. I’d like to see him very close to a few of his fellow mutants (perhaps Nightcrawler, Storm, Colossus and Banshee, since they all started together), be on speaking terms, but little else, with the majority of them, and have a few that he simply rubs the wrong way. Your take?

Oooh…what if James Howlett was the guy who originally started Weapon X (or whatever that program is called now)? In fact, what if it was something he did in response to the Nazi buildup…like the Canadian version of the Super Soldier formula, but much more clandestine. After all the torture and abuse, all Wolverine can remember are the tales that Howlett told him and he’s able to use those as a backstory when he eventually escapes from captivity. I don’t know if you follow Mad Men at all, but the main character in that show had a somewhat similar situation. He was stationed in a remote area of Korea when their encampment was struck by mortar fire. The blast killed his commanding officer, burning him so badly that he was unrecognizable. The main character had an awful childhood, so he saw this as his opportunity to change things. He switched dog tags with his commanding officer and started a new life when he got stateside.

Now that I’ve ruined a major plot point for one of TV’s greatest shows, let’s get back to Wolverine.

I think there’s reason to assume this could be possible. And it sets Wolverine up as more of a sympathetic character…he has that one dark secret that he’s trying desperately to hide from the rest of the world. He’s ashamed of the “easy path” he’s taken to try to get his life back. It’s a little convoluted, but what isn’t in the X-world?

Anyway, back to the friends thing. I never really thought about Wolverine’s relationships with all the young girls on the team. On paper, it sounds pretty creepy. And it does diminish the “bad boy” quality of the character. In the books though, it comes across like one of those cartoons where the little dog is trying to make friends with the big dog who barely acknowledges his existence. The girls see a father figure that may be able to protect them and teach them. Wolverine sees another person that he has to keep out of trouble for the sake of the team. It’s a weird parasitic relationship and comics seem to thrive on that kind of melodrama.

In reality, I agree with your bigger point. These girls would be reluctant to get close to the brute of the team. And he wouldn’t pay any attention to them at all, most likely sneering whenever they insist on tagging along on an adventure. Better yet, he’d probably roar that they didn’t belong in action at all. It’s like how the popular clique thinks that they’re the only people in the school. Just a natural pecking order.

However, we can’t dismiss the friendships that he has made. It would be odd to have him do a 180 now. So we have to deal with the Kitty Prydes and the Jubilees. Neither of them is particularly close to him right now, so it’s easy to just let those ties fade away. I do like your idea of having the mutants almost segregated by team…where Wolverine associates only with the “new” X-Men while the original team keeps him at arm’s length or just flat-out distrusts him. And the new recruits hold him in awe while he chooses to ignore them.

I’d like to see him fly off the handle a bit more too. The berserker rages have all but disappeared. The half-cocked, male pride angle has been abandoned. I’d like to see Wolverine acting a bit less rational and more spontaneous. And that whole “had a Japanese bride and a kid” thing has to just go away. Seriously.

That sort of brings us to the rogues gallery (because the only Wolverine enemy I can think of is Silver Samurai). Is there anything to go on here? Does The Hand count as an enemy? Can he claim any of the X-Men’s enemies as his own? I’m so tired of Sabretooth that I don’t even really want to talk about him. All I know is that Marvel’s editorial team thought that Wolverine was going to fade away quickly, but Chris Claremont liked the idea of a feral warrior so he created Sabretooth as an enemy of Iron Fist in that character’s solo title. Sabretooth is basically a blond, slightly taller Logan. Lame.

I like the idea of Hewlett being someone whose identity Wolverine took. I think it would add some mystery and danger back to the character, who’s a lot less impressive when you see him as the James Hewlett depicted in Origins. I also think it drops the character a little more back into the realm of the relatable, since he’s not been around for 150 years anymore.

As to your other point, I agree that Wolverine’s Rogues Gallery is laughable. Sabretooth is indeed his biggest foe, but considering that Sabretooth is almost as overused as Wolverine, he’s not a good foe. I had forgotten about the Silver Samurai, but isn’t he a good guy now? Even if he isn’t, I’m not thrilled with Wolverine’s staunchest foe being someone with an Asian background, as I’d like to move the character out of that region of the world and back to his homeland of Canada. I would count the Hand as an enemy, but not a particularly interesting one. They exist only so he can slice and dice any number of their operatives, and there will still be more waiting in the wings.

I believe that you could consider the Wendigo to be part of his Rogues Gallery, and that’s suitably Canadian, but the Wendigo is a dull foe, and not nearly smart enough to present an interesting threat for more than an issue or two. Wasn’t Cyber considered a Wolverine foe? He never seemed to have much going for him, except for the fact that he looked neat when Sam Keith drew him. Yeesh, that is one pathetic roster of baddies; it makes Superman’s Rogues Gallery of bald scientists and wacky inter-dimensional imps look pretty good.

I believe that Sabretooth was intended to be Wolverine’s opposite number (actually, rumor has it he was intended to be Wolverine’s father when first introduced, which could have been more interesting), but I’m not a big fan of opposite numbers as archenemies. I don’t find Venom vs Spider-Man to be an interesting match-up. I much prefer when opposites clash, and in this instance, I think that Wolverine needs to face off against a patient, calculating, schemer. He doesn’t need to be a Lex Luthor type, with no powers but great scientific know-how. He can be quite powerful in his own right, but he needs to be the type who doesn’t rattle or get upset. He needs to be able to make long range plans and he needs to be able to change them as circumstances warrant. This would put him at odds with Wolverine’s berserker rages and notorious temper.

I’d also like to add a villain from the general Marvel Rogues Gallery: Viper. She has worked with Silver Samurai, and the two of them clashed with Wolverine in the past. I think she’s perfect against Wolverine as she has some of the espionage background that mirrors Wolverine’s own background in that field, and she also is a fierce and savage opponent, just as Wolverine is. If the Samurai has not reformed and can fight with her against Wolverine, they’d be a perfect team.

Dragging X-Foes into Wolverine’s Rogues Gallery could be tricky. Sure, he has reason to hate Magneto and Apocalypse, who have both wronged him severely, but they’re not really the sort to fixate on one mutant. Perhaps it would be better to use one of the lesser known, and lesser used, X-Villains. Personally, I’d grab one or two of the Marauders and flesh them out in the pages of Wolverine. Most of them never really got personalities under Claremont’s pen when they were first created, and a lot of work could be done on them if they were given space to breathe in Wolverine’s solo title. Wolverine could probably lay claim to Donald Pierce, Lady Deathstrike and the Reavers as his own villains, but unfortunately, none of them are very interesting.

Ugh. His villains are a sad state of affairs. Any ideas on your end?

I was thinking along the same lines as you. Never been a fan of those “same but different” match-ups. I think that’s why I generally get bored with primary arch-enemies anyway. They start out as strong foils for the heroes, but over the course of time both the hero and the villain get tweaked until they’re basically mirror images of each other. I mean, Lex Luthor spent some time in that armor of his in an attempt to go toe-to-toe with Superman…Red Skull has been pumped up until he’s basically Cap without the shield…even Green Goblin’s powers were increased to better coincide with Spider-Man’s. I would much rather see a fight between folks who take different approaches, have different strengths and weaknesses and are able to employ tactics that may confuse or distract.

Unfortunately, Wolverine’s foes are a bunch of weak reflections of him. Like I said, Sabretooth is basically Logan with a mullet and some lifts. Lady Deathstrike is Logan with boobs. Cyber quickly became Wolverine’s indestructible brawling counterpart. Viper may not be a bad idea…she’s someone who has resources and can throw some bodies at Wolvie. And she plays in the same dark corners as Logan.

The perfect villain for Wolverine to face off against would be someone who is very intelligent, has a unique power set and doesn’t get rattled easily. We need a Zen counterpart to Wolverine’s berserker. This may sound like a crazy idea, but what about Vanisher? He’s constantly getting himself involved in some of the more back-alley crimes that land in Wolverine’s wheelhouse…associating with drug cartels, thieves and smugglers. Vanisher is a smart guy and his powers would confound Wolverine. Could be a fun way to bring one of the X-Men’s oldest foes up to a more worthy level.

Of course, we’ve talked about Grey Gargoyle too. He may not be a long term opponent, but he would definitely inflict some damage on Wolverine that would be felt for a long time. I could even see them facing off against each other after we’ve diminished Wolvie’s powers…right up until we kill off Gargoyle. And some interesting things could spring out of that as well. I’m not a huge fan of legacy villains, but maybe Gargoyle has a child or family member who would pick up the mantle? Are there any long-time associates of his that may seek revenge on Wolvie? We could push Wolverine off into his own mythos, his own corner of the Marvel Universe. Granted, some new villains will need to be created at some time, but if Wolverine is that old (even if our new origin is able to shave off a century or so) he should have some interaction with some of the older villains in the Marvel Universe.

Those are my first thoughts. Follow up?

Not much to follow up with, as I like your ideas. I agree that the Vanisher has a lot of potential, potential which Marvel is just now beginning to explore. He’s a smart guy, and he’s a planner, which makes him perfect against Wolverine. The Vanisher has to be a planner, as he’s basically useless in a fight, although his teleporting ability could be used to some effect in a brawl (I think the only time I’ve ever seen that happen is when he took on the original five X-Men way back in his first appearance in X-Men #2. Basically, it’s a question of getting your foes to use their powers against each other by teleporting in and out among them). I think he should definitely be added to the Rogues Gallery.

With Vanisher, Grey Gargoyle (and making him a legacy would be fine; Marvel is able to do that with their villains, even if they can’t with their heroes), Viper, and possibly the Silver Samurai, we’re slowly building up a small group of foes for him. I’d still advocate taking a few of the Marauders and using them against him. I’d choose a duo, Scalphunter and Arclight. Arclight had a romantic interest in Scalphunter, so perhaps she’s working with him as a way to try and make something happen. They both have a history as members of the military and/or special forces teams, so perhaps they met Wolverine sometime in the past and have some sort of specific issue with him. They’re also both tough characters who can go toe to toe with Wolverine for a nice big slugfest, in ways that none of our other villains (except the Gargoyle) really can. That gives us seven new villains for him (even if some of them work in teams) and I like that.

Hmmm. That gives us history, allies and enemies. Have we finished dissecting and rebuilding Marvel’s most overused character?

Aside from shaving his back and putting him on a Nicorette regimen, we’ve done all we can.

I like it.

Now if only Marvel would take the hint…

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Wolverine: Convolution is His Middle Name.

Nov-12-08

They say he’s the best there is at what he does and what he does is…well, it’s kind of confusing, really.

Created by Len Wein, Wolverine, for all his bluster and bombast, is perhaps one of the most enigmatic characters Marvel has ever foisted upon the public. Initially, his vague background, vicious attitude and general bad-assery quickly took him to the top of the “Awesome Scale” and into the hallowed territory of Predator, Mad Max, Boba Fett, William Shatner and Patrick Swayze in Road House (but NOT Dirty Dancing).

However, since the early days, Marvel has managed to overexpose, overexplain, overuse, overdo, overwhelm and overcompensate for the character in his continued exploits. Even though his official “origin” has been published and well-received, I still can’t honestly tell you anything about him. It’s baffling. Here’s what we may or may not know: His name is James Howlett, but everyone calls him Logan. He’s a mutant from Canada but he fought alongside Captain America in World War 2. He’s been tortured, brainwashed and abused. He used to have bone claws, but those were replaced with an indestructible metal skeleton, which was then removed by Magneto. The bone claws returned, but now he’s back to metal again. He has a ridiculous healing factor, and yet he used to have an eyepatch and a stump hand and lived as a pseudo-pirate on an island in the Pacific called Madripoor. I’m pretty sure he was married, or getting married, to a Japanese girl at one point. He has connections to nearly everyone in the Marvel Universe except Howard the Duck (give it time). And it certainly didn’t help things when the Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends cartoon portrayed Wolverine with an Australian accent. Sheesh.

Seriously. What the hell?

Look, I’ll admit that I was particularly enamored with Wolverine when he first appeared in the reborn Uncanny X-Men title. And the miniseries that Chris Claremont and Frank Miller threw together was pretty darn awesome. Something happened in the meantime to change my mind though. He started guest-starring in every title from Amazing Spider-Man to Get Along Gang. His character got boring. The whole feudal Japan thing. The secret Weapon X experiments that keep being changed and retold to explain continuity problems. Don’t even get me started on Patch. And the completely outrageous concept that his healing factor can rebuild his entire body from skeletal remains after being at ground zero of a nuclear explosion. It almost makes me laugh. Wolverine is the only character who could relax by smoking a cigar on the surface of the sun.

Aside from completely removing him from the 72 Marvel titles he appears in each month, what else could we do to tone down Wolverine’s image and make him interesting again?

This could be a long one…

How very interesting. We may be two of the only fanboys out there who don’t really like Wolverine, although I can say that I never really liked the character, even when he was first introduced. You say that we can’t limit his appearances as a way to make him interesting again, and you may be right, but I think limiting those appearances in some way is absolutely essential. We discussed overexposing a character somewhat when we discussed the Joker, but we didn’t really delve into it. I actually have quite a rant on that very topic, but I’ll save it for another time and place, especially since this is likely to run long anyway. I will only say that Wolverine is much too overexposed and he needs to be seen less. However, whether that happens or not, there are other areas we need to explore with Wolverine if we’re going to make him a good, viable character again.

I see two immediate problems with Wolverine, which spring to mind. The first is that Wolverine, when first introduced, was the cool guy, the Fonzie of the X-Men. He was a rebel, he was slick, and he had some style. This was all well and good, but as Wolverine became more popular, he stopped being just a slick guy and became incapable of showing weakness or making a mistake. He’s the most macho, most perfect man in comics. He can’t do wrong. He can’t BE wrong. If there’s an argument, you better believe that Wolverine’s opinion is the writer’s opinion, and whatever he’s saying, with his decades (centuries? millennium?) of life and experience, is what the writer wants the reader to believe and support. There’s simply no dramatic tension involving this character anymore; if he’s in a fight, he’ll win, no matter how many villains or how powerful they are; if he’s in an argument, he’ll win, even if he’s debating nuclear physics with Reed Richards; if he’s playing tiddlywinks, he’s sure to come out on top!

The second problem I have with him somewhat relates to the first, and that’s the fact that he’s simply too powerful. When first introduced, Wolverine had enhanced senses, metal claws, and a decent healing factor. All of these powers have been ramped up since his early appearances, which is something of the norm for comics (and it’s something I’ve mentioned before when discussing Marvel Comics). Sadly though, his powers have gone off the charts. I could complain about his fighting skills becoming legendary, or his enhanced senses allowing him to track dust mites across a desert, but it’s his healing factor which is completely out of control. In the 1970s and 1980s, Wolverine could be taken down if he took sufficient damage, and he wasn’t getting up anytime soon. It was also obvious that too much damage could kill him. As the years wore on, he began to regenerate quicker, and from more serious injuries. This may have reached it’s most preposterous heights in his comic during Civil War, when he had all of his flesh and organs seared off and was reduced to a skeleton by Nitro. A skeleton! Yes, he had no brain, no heart, no lungs….he was just a skeleton. And he regenerated to normal! This is ridiculously powerful and it has to stop.

Of course, there are other problems with Wolverine. I think that any strong book needs a supporting cast, and Wolverine doesn’t have one. This could be because he was never intended as a solo character; he was a supporting character himself, and he was a loner. When he got his own title, it became difficult to fit a cast around him, since it didn’t fit his persona. He also has little in the way of a rogues gallery; since his first instinct is to kill his enemies, it’s hard to keep them around for long. His biggest foe is Sabretooth, who’s almost as overexposed as Wolverine himself. It’s also obvious that no one knows quite what to do with Wolverine; he’s Canadian, but that’s rarely shown. He might mention it, but we don’t get the feeling that he belongs to another culture. As you mentioned, he’s shown an obsession with Japanese culture, which doesn’t seem to fit with his personality, and seems to have been added only because it’s considered cool. He has too much in his past; he’s been a soldier, a secret agent, an experiment, as assassin….he wants to be all things to all people, but that’s simply not possible.

So, that’s the problems I see. Now the question is, can we solve these problems?

Can we rebuild him? Do we have the technology? (Why do I feel like I’ve used the Six Million Dollar Man joke before…Iron Man revamp maybe?) Perhaps I should switch to a Vanilla Ice reference instead? “If you’ve got a problem, yo, I’ll solve it…”

Right.

You’ve honed in on the exact points I was glossing over in my opening rant. Too perfect. Too powerful. No sense of conflict. No real sense of danger for him. No friends. No threats. And just a jumble of history that feels like the comic book version of that Katamari Damancy video game where you roll around the world and stuff sticks to you. All in all, stripping Wolverine back down to something interesting and useful is a truly daunting and bloated assignment. And I’m not sure it can be done without taking a few giant leaps of faith. Things are going to have to be retconned, ignored and just outright forgotten.

One of the main things we must do is provide some sort of weakness, both in his powers and in his personality. I hate to think we need to introduce a villain that he can’t handle, because that would just be piling more nonsense on top of the already existing nonsense, but there needs to be a person or an event that diminishes Wolverine vastly. Something fairly monumental, I’m guessing. Or maybe not. Maybe the best course of action would be to have this take place over a length of time?

Clearly, heroes are much more fun to follow when you’re not sure if they’re able to get out of the precarious situations they find themselves plopped into. Wolverine’s bulldozer-like presence takes any of that sense of tension away. That Nitro incident is something I always point to when people talk about the silliness in superhero books (well, that and the whole Spider Clone thing…and Superboy punching the walls of reality…and…). His freaking brain was gone. Poof! There’s no function left there, nothing that could possibly trigger any defense mechanism or healing ability. And yet he reassembled like that dude from Terminator 2. Wait, I take that back. That guy was actually able to be stopped.

I look at it this way: If Bullseye happens to fling a toothpick straight through Wolverine’s eyeball, and he gets it at just the right angle that it sinks into his brain, then Wolverine should be dead. Forget the adamantium-laced skeleton. There’s nothing in the physiology of a humanoid being that would protect the soft tissues like that. If that lame villain Machete just happened to take a swing at the back of Wolvie’s neck and he managed to find the exact spot where two of his vertabrae came together and his blade was thin enough to slide through and sever the brain stem, then Mr. James Howlett would cease to be. Simple as that. I don’t care about past procedure at Marvel, dead is dead.

And knowing that, Wolverine would be more cautious, more tactful and possibly just a bit more reserved. We wouldn’t have the constant know-it-all, done-it-all attitude.

I’m not going to delve into enemies and supporting cast right now, because I think that it’s important that we discuss his ties to the X-Men first. This is his inner circle of family and friends, for what it’s worth. Let’s not concentrate on his solo title just yet. Although, I will pose this one question: When Magneto chooses to attack the X-Men, why doesn’t he just use Wolverine as his living puppet every time? Seriously, he could just take control of Wolvie and obliterate every other member of the team…and he could do it from miles away! Some snikt-snikt…a bit of blood and gore…and -BOOM- no more X-Men!

Anyway, there’s a lot more to talk about and I feel like we’ve only scratched the surface. This could go on for days! We need to strip him down quickly and effectively…like field dressing a moose. What’s the first step?

The first task should be to reduce his powers and his infallibility. I’d start with reducing his powers first, since if you just start having him make mistakes, it’s going to seem odd and far fetched, but if you reduce his powers first, then he may start making mistakes based on the fact that he’s a little more insecure and feeling his way with his new power levels. As for how one reduces his powers back to mere mortal level, I could suggest a half dozen options. He could be infected with a disease; his healing factor is fighting off the disease, but it can’t defeat it. The perpetual war within his body means that his healing factor isn’t as strong and can’t work as hard on other problems (and perhaps the disease dulls his senses at the same time). Perhaps he’s hit with a weapon that is supposed to take away a mutant’s powers, like Forge’s ray gun that depowered Storm in the 1980s, but only gets a glancing blow. Or, if you want to make it a longer story, perhaps he takes a full blow, and is completely depowered for awhile. When Beast finally figures out a way to return his powers, he warns Wolverine that the procedure is untested, and it may not restore his powers to their peak levels. Turns out that the Beast was correct and his powers are restored only to our new, more reasonable levels.

You could also use any number of freak accidents (the Marvel Universe is awash in them) where he drinks a serum designed to do one thing, and then gets exposed to radiation, and the two interact, reducing his power levels. Perhaps, since he insists on hanging out with Dr. Strange in the New Avengers, he gets hit with a magic spell that reduces his powers. The possibilities are legion (and Marvel has already missed some good opportunities to reduce his powers; I would have done it when Magneto ripped all the metal from his body). It really boils down on whether or not you want to make it a story; do you spend a few months detailing the reduction of his powers, and figuring out how that affects him, or do you remove them quickly, and then move on to other stories? I think you do the former, giving readers a chance to see how, once his powers have been reduced to 1970’s levels, it affects every part of the character, making him more cautious, making him realize that he can die, and bringing him down to the same level of everyone else.

Don’t get me wrong; he can still be cool and a bad-ass. I’m not suggesting that we turn him into Timid Timmy, or making him a coward. However, he needs to get his butt handed to him every now and then; he needs to at least acknowledge that he’s vulnerable in some way and that he can make mistakes.

Were I to actually pitch this idea, I’d do a story where someone duplicated Forge’s old power nullifier. They plan to use it on one particular mutant; I’m not sure if it matters which one, but we’ll make it one of the X-Men. Wolverine and the X-Men go to stop this evil villain, and during the struggle, Wolverine gets hit by the nullifier, and his powers are gone. Boom. He’s near death, and spends some time in a medical bay at the X-Mansion. They originally think that he’ll die because of the metal in his body, but apparently his body has adjusted to having the adamantium laced to his bones (in the same way a cyborg’s body adapts to the metal parts). So, he has his claws, but he can’t use them; without his healing factor, he’d slice open his hands and bleed profusely if he did. We then spend a few months with Wolverine having no powers at all; where he’s forced to work at being a hero, and we can see him as a true mortal. I’d say he spends those months going after the bad guy who built the power nullifier. Wolverine wants him dead, so he can’t steal the powers of any other mutants.

Finally, the Beast returns Wolverine’s powers, as mentioned above. We know his powers are reduced, but by this time, the reader has had the opportunity to see what Wolverine can do without them, and they understand the character better. This guy has tons of experience, he’s strong, he’s a great fighter, and he’s brave as they come. However, if he makes mistakes, he could die. And he does, occasionally, make mistakes.

Thoughts?

Well now, that’s intriguing. There are some pros and cons about that idea, but overall I think it’s a good template to follow. I think my qualms are in the details rather than the overall effectiveness of the plot. For instance, I’d hate for this to be a rehash of the “Storm lost her powers” story and I’d be concerned that this would become the path of least resistance for any future depowerings. The convenient rebuilding of a powerful device is a bit troublesome to me. Of course, I could poke holes in the alternate solution you offered as well. These freak viruses and plagues and diseases seem to go hand-in-hand with the mutant population. And they’re rarely naturally occurring things either. Usually, there’s some sort of covert experimentation going on…someone stumbles upon a hidden bunker…or an abused mutant is found wandering the streets of some backwoods European village…call in the rescue team!

Sadly, his healing factor has been so augmented in recent years, that I’m pretty sure it kills off all foreign antibodies before they even get within ten feet of him. It’s all quite ridiculous. There has to be a new way to diminish his abilities and powers. The magic angle is interesting because it’s something that Wolverine and the X-Men don’t deal with very often. The only trouble is that most of the magic that happens in Marvel’s world is unnaturally easy to reverse. Here’s a thought you didn’t mention: What if he gets in a fight with a villain he’s never encountered before, someone with alchemical powers? I’m just throwing this out there…Grey Gargoyle. He’s been around for a long time and yet he’s a pretty enigmatic villain. He’s now part of The Hood’s crime syndicate which recently had a run-in with the New Avengers. And, in a battle with the Fantastic Four not too long ago, he temporarily turned Thing to stone. When the effects wore off, Ben Grimm was able to change between his rock and human form at will. That establishes a precedent for physiological changes. Who knows what effects his powers would have on a mutant? It could be that simple. There’s also Absorbing Man or Diablo that we could throw at him.

The reason I like something like this is that it’s easy to set up but it’s also a completely unexpected consequence of a typical superpowered battle. Instead of hailing this as one of those “don’t miss this” issues that will shatter the internet and blow your mind or pegging it into a special foil-stamped anniversary issue with back-up origins and filler stories, the plot point could just happen. Poof! No more powers. Either deal with it or wallow in self-pity.

I could also see Wolverine pursuing Grey Gargoyle and struggling with the decision of whether to kill him or not. On the one hand, he has caused this self-doubt in Logan, which is a new feeling for him. However, on the other hand, Wolverine now has no powers to follow through on a possible assassination. Maybe he uses his skills and resources to track Grey Gargoyle (who is now on the run because he fears retaliation), but he discovers that Gargoyle is already in a sad state…perhaps some sort of exotic cancer is killing him because, honestly, he hasn’t been used much recently and I don’t think anyone would miss him. This part of the storyline would establish some emotion in Wolverine and prove that he’s capable of pity and mercy.

Regardless of the solution, I do believe that the idea of showing Wolverine without any powers at all for a while is key to making this a solid story. He needs to have a reason to doubt himself. And, like you said, I can see him making mistakes like forgetting about his healing factor and popping his claws or jumping from a height that will cause damage. Those types of things definitely need to happen in order to reinforce the consequences.

I also agree that Beast would eventually be able to find a solution to the depowering. However, nothing should be that simple. Perhaps the “cure” is only a temporary fix…or his powers may come and go, like a faulty electrical connection. I’m guessing this would be some sort of DNA bypass that Beast would concoct and maybe it should permanently alter the scope of Wolverine’s powers. No more mystical interventions like Apocalypse jamming the metal back into his skeleton. No more regenerating from point-blank nuclear blasts.

How does that play for you? And, after your response, do you think we should start a Part Two of this thread for the next chapter in Wolverine’s rebuilding?

I like that a lot; it’s always more elegant if you can incorporate a change like this into a comics universe more seamlessly, and that’s what you’ve done.  As you mentioned, the Grey Gargoyle is someone who’s powers aren’t really understood well, and if he could change the Thing, he could certainly change Wolverine.  If anyone is skeptical on that score, it would be easy enough to have Wolverine be suffering some other ailment at the same time the Grey Gargoyle turns him to stone.  That does work nicely though.

Otherwise, this sounds like a plan to me.  On to Part 2!


Sub-Mariner: Playing the Prince or Acting the Fool?

May-09-08

Prince Namor, ruler of the fabled Atlantis, is really just a half-naked dude with wings on his feet…a half-breed in a Speedo…a pointy-eared ne’er-do-well who plays the heavy as often as he plays the hero. Namor’s early exploits painted him as comicdom’s first true anti-hero. He had a fierce loyalty backed by a short temper. Of course, these are the same early days that portrayed both Batman and Captain America toting guns and flaunting some rather graphic violence.

It’s hard to believe that one of Marvel’s top three original characters (alongside Cap and Human Torch) has fallen so far from favor in today’s comics. Who would’ve thought that a fish-man in a swimsuit could drum up such high sales numbers in his early career? But somewhere along the way, he lost the audience. And, much like the early success and subsequent disinterest of both Ant-Man and The Wasp, Sub-Mariner has faded into semi-obscurity.

The history of the character is a bit twisted and contradictory (not much of a surprise for early comic book creations). His career began with a fight against the original Human Torch. Then, he joined forces with the Torch against Hitler as part of the All-Winners Squad. Later, Marvel history would be retconned to create a group called The Invaders that he also adventured with (not sure what they were invading or what The Avengers were avenging for that matter). A few brief revivals kept the character in comics, but as superheroes faded in popularity, so did Namor’s appearances.

When the Fantastic Four made Marvel a household name again, Namor wasn’t far behind. He has been tied to the team for decades, based on his unrequited obsession with Sue Storm. The character has been both a member of the Defenders and the Avengers, as well as a repeated ally of Doctor Doom. He has waged war against the surface dwellers and repelled attacks by Atlantean insurgents. He even once married his cousin. But he has never really found his niche.

Part of the problem is that no one has ever definitively explained who he is and what he’s capable of. He once exhibited the powers of various undersea lifeforms, channeling electricity like an eel and expanding in size like a puffer fish. At times, his creation was based upon the kidnapping and rape of his mother while in another instance he fought valiantly alongside his father. He’s been given wings on his feet and gills in his neck (and subsequently had both taken away and restored at various intervals). One interesting run had him heading his own business and fighting pollution. He even recently murdered his newly discovered son. Basically, Namor has been all over the place.

But look, this is the Marvel Universe. Anything can happen. With that being said, where does Namor fit? What are his strengths? Who does he surround himself with? How can Marvel somehow make him a relevant, interesting and involved character again?

Ah Namor. You know, I never really enjoyed this character much until John Byrne’s series from the early 1990’s, which I thought was the first time I had really seen the character start to move toward fulfilling his potential. Now, going back and reading a lot of Namor comics from the past decades, I can state that I rarely find him particularly interesting. That’s not to say that I don’t feel the character has potential, because I do. I just don’t think very many creators have used him as well as he could be used. Besides Byrne, I also enjoyed the (very short) time Roger Stern used him in the Avengers (yes, I’m going to praise the Stern run on the Avengers again. Look, it was a creative high point for that title….deal with it unbelievers!). I thought that Namor worked well in that setting. He’s a powerful monarch and head of state, and he’s being ordered around by a woman who’s power is to grow small, sprout wings, and design costumes. There’s obviously going to be friction! Plus, I thought playing Namor against Hercules was a very inspired move, as it brought out the best in both of them. So he worked in a team, but on his own?

I think one of the things that really defines Namor (and its why, although I like him in team settings, he rarely stays in them for long) is that he is a loner. He has no real long term relationships amongst the superhuman set, with a few notable exceptions (I would say Captain America and the Invisible Woman being those exceptions, with perhaps the original Defenders being included as well. I would argue that you can’t really include any of the Fantastic Four except for Sue, since the men really have never seemed to like him much at all.). Most other heroes either don’t like him, don’t understand him, or don’t know him. Even if some of the older Namor comics from the 1960s and 1970s, when he ruled Atlantis, seemed to rarely show him with much of a connection to even other Atlanteans! You can’t even really count his love interests, since both of his wives (Dorma and Marrina) died very shortly after he married them. He has had passing dalliances with others and short lived alliances, but really, there is always a sense of cold distance between Namor and his allies. I think that makes him somewhat unique and I think it’s something on which to focus.

I don’t necessarily believe that Namor acts like this because he wants to be alone. He’s someone who has never really known his family and who has been thrust into the role of ruler, and usually protector, of an entire nation. A nation which, powerful though it may be, is often on the brink of war with the rest of the world. I think that the recent storyline where Namor killed his newly discovered son is a perfect example of what makes him such a fascinating character in the right hands; he’s truly willing to do anything. I remember reading that series, wondering what Namor would do, and continually saying to myself, “No way will they have him kill his son.” Yet that’s exactly what they did, and it made perfect sense from the aspect of the story. Namor did what he felt he had to to protect his people and it’s his willingness to make those kinds of sacrifices, his ability to be the anti-hero when need be, that I really like about him. I don’t get the impression that Namor particularly enjoys the things he must often do (as when he killed his son). Instead, he has an air of gravity about him, as he realizes that he simply must do these things.

How to make him relevant? I would argue that he’s already relevant; he’s the leader of a foreign power, a power that is strong, that is independent, and whose goals are not entirely known to us. If that doesn’t make him a perfect fit for much of the world today, I’m not sure what would. Some people in the Marvel Universe consider Namor and the Atlanteans to be terrorists and violent warmongers, and they certainly have good reason, considering the amount of times Atlantis has attacked the surface world. I think those smoldering political tensions could make for an interesting backdrop to tell stories featuring Namor.

I must admit that I already had a path in mind for my Namor revamp when I originated this post and I was hoping you would validate some of that with your response (which you did). He is, ultimately, a loner. Plus, he’s the boss. He runs an entire kingdom…even though it’s only ever shown as one big underwater city. The only major complaint I have about him is that he comes across a bit like Tony Stark. And by that, I mean that his supporting cast is virtually nonexistent. He makes all the decisions himself and has no outside judgment to help guide him. To tell the truth, I think he’s better “friends” with Doctor Doom than with any other surface dweller.

So, let’s push him to that extreme. Why shouldn’t the Sub-Mariner focus all of his energy on politics and intrigue? Let’s give him his own title or miniseries that is less about punching other heroes in the neck and more about the drama involved in potential war. And wouldn’t it be entertaining if that war was with Latveria and the one monarch he probably respects more than anyone? I like tension.

There are a few things we need to understand first, the most important of which is scope. Atlantis is supposed to be a kingdom…an empire, if you will. Well, that would most likely mean that it encompasses more than one gigantic city, right? Every other country on the planet is a collection of lands and metroplexes. Why shouldn’t Atlantis be the same? And, since water takes up more than two-thirds of the Earth’s surface, ruling over the mega-country of Atlantis would be one huge ball of nigh-overwhelming stress every day of the year. What’s the economy of Atlantis? Where do they get their technology (and how does it work underwater)? How do they communicate with each other over such massive amounts of space? Hell, I want to know why things are always so bright in Atlantis when it’s hundreds of feet under the ocean!

I have my own answers to those questions, but I want to know what you think first.

It’s so interesting that you would mention that Namor seems closer to Doom than most superheroes, since I was thinking the exact same thing when I wrote my original response. I think focusing on the ruling of Atlantis is a great idea, and Marvel’s in a position to do this. Besides Doom and Namor, we also have T’Challa, the Black Panther, who rules the country of Wakanda….that’s three monarchs who hold places of importance in the Marvel Universe. Add in Black Bolt and Attilan, and we could do some fascinating political stories that center on the superhuman side of the equation….there are also numerous stories that could be done with countries not ruled by superhumans as well.

I think that trying to capture the essence of an underwater city is difficult, and while I’m not an expert on any of the undersea characters that have appeared in comics over the years, I’d say that no one has successfully managed it yet. I believe it can be done, but many of the questions you ask need to be answered. I certainly agree that it has never made sense that Atlantis is simply one big city. There should be multiple settlements scattered through the oceans, with Namor as the ruler of them all. However, each city would have to have it’s own, regional, leader. Whether they be mayors, governors, or a more feudal title like lord, regent, duke or baron (or, perhaps even more likely, a title unique to Atlantis), I believe introducing these characters into Namor’s story could only be beneficial. They may not be supporting cast in the traditional sense of the word, since I don’t know that they could be considered friends, but they’d be political allies and rivals, and could help to give Namor’s title additional characters. Having multiple cities in the kingdom of Atlantis also gives Namor a chance to be out and about and away from the capitol, which is important, I believe, for the action.

As for creating the details of their society, you ask some fundamental, and vitally important, questions. How the heck does their technology work underwater (and not just any water, but salt water, which would corrode and short circuit almost any technology that we have created). Just how much technology do they have? We often don’t see a lot of technology in their day to day lives (I don’t recall seeing anything like a radio or TV, and when you see people in the city, they don’t seem to be using much technology), but when they go to war, watch out! Suddenly they have massively sophisticated battle cruisers and weapons, dwarfing much of what the surface world can produce. I believe that somewhere along the line they may have suggested that they found a cache of Deviant technology or the like, but why would another race create technological devices that could be used so well underwater? Still, it seems that most of their technology is geared toward making war, and that’s something I think I would want to follow up on. Whether through choice or design, it seems significant.

You make good points. Even though the Marvel Universe is mostly based in our universe, it does have its own differences. Marvel claims that its strength lies in its reality, but we never really see that reality come into play unless it’s to the extreme. We’ve seen one or two references to President Bush and, of course, there was a strong reaction to 9/11, but there isn’t a constant underlying theme of our Earth’s political structure.

Here’s a great opportunity to bring in some intrigue and tension without it revolving around someone getting hit or zapped. Wakanda and Latveria are both run by powered beings (I’m not even sure where Attilan is anymore…the Moon? Himalayas?). And let’s not forget other established Marvel countries like Silver Sable’s homeland of Symkaria, the High Evolutionary’s Transia, the Ancient One’s Kamar-Taj and the island nation of Madripoor. Any combination of these countries’ interests, resources and reasons to rumble would make for some good stories and long-lasting consequences. There’s a chance in here to shape the Marvel Universe for the better by adding much-needed depth and dynamics.

Let me start with my thoughts on Atlantis. In current Marvel continuity, the city-state of Atlantis is no more, with Namor allowing it to be blown to bits in an effort to destroy Nitro. The Atlanteans have been scattered. And, to tell the truth, this is the perfect set-up for my ideas. Look, Atlantis made no sense. I understand that it was a thriving continent thousands of years ago, rivaling even the ingenuity of Greece and the power of the Roman Empire. However, once it sank beneath the ocean, that effectively brought an end to its relevance for the surface world. The people all became a subspecies called Homo Mermanus…Mermen (and mermaids). There’s no reasonable explanation for the fact that they continue to wear robes and fancy jewelry like the court of Camelot, yet their city looks like something out of The Jetsons with its futuristic shapes and advanced technology. The entire scene is anachronistic.

So the whole place goes BOOM. Excellent. Let’s start over from scratch. What is the Atlantean economy based on? Who do they trade with and what are their products? If there’s a trade agreement with some nations of the surface world, I would guess that it’s based on fishing and mining. And, if it’s not, it should be. The Atlanteans are much better equipped for procuring those resources than anyone in the surface world. Plus, if you look at Atlantis like any other country, wouldn’t it have drilling rights on its own land? And, extrapolating that idea a step further, if a surface nation owns the airspace over its land, wouldn’t Atlantis actually own the shipping routes that run above its land as well? Those are some interesting facts to base political maneuvering upon.

The other economy that makes perfect sense, based on the location and circumstances of Atlantis, is piracy. If we establish that the nation of Atlantis is actually many smaller cities and outposts spread out across all the planet’s oceans, then it would be plausible that some of these smaller locations would supplement their survival by robbing passing cruise ships, helping themselves to the various goods found on merchant vessels, and even capturing some armaments from smugglers and submarines. This could lead to a lot of conflicts and potential showdowns.

Further exploring the New Atlantis, I would guess that it would be a massive undertaking to rebuild their capital city. Perhaps they don’t do it right away. What if they take to whatever natural shelters they can find? Let’s say that their cities are now based around shipwrecks, caverns and underwater ruins…a loose collection of villages connected by the currents. Each one of these “states’ would be run by a governor (a Mer-Duke or Mer-Chief…or, taking Greek/Roman reference, Argos or Archos for “leader”) and these leaders would make great friends and foils for Prince Namor’s rule. Depending on which direction we take Atlantis in, they could even build a “mafia”-like relationship among the leaders where each state is run by a boss who reports to Namor and Namor in turn has his consigliere for direction.

I’m not an actual scientist, but I’d throw it out there that sound travels further underwater. Perhaps they can set up some sort of rudimentary communications system based on that premise (like whales speaking to each other). And, while the previous Atlantis was bathed in glorious sunlight, it would make sense if New Atlantis was mostly shrouded in darkness. Their main light sources would come from phosphorescent algae, plants and fish. Maybe there’s a specific species of coral that can be treated to glow. It’s already been established that the Atlanteans controlled the planet’s “magma vents” to keep their cities warm, so I would suppose that their nation’s scientists would be focused on other needs…like lighting and communication technology.

Speaking of technology, let’s put it out there now that any sort of Deviant cache has been completely obliterated in the old city’s destruction. If there is to be new bleeding edge tech, it will come solely through pacts with surface allies. No more ominous battle fleets, laser weapons and similar doohickeys. The typical citizen of Atlantis will gather their “technology” from whatever they can salvage (and salvaging itself would be another form of economy)…spearguns, shields and armor made from pieces of ships’ hulls and giant seashells. I picture Namor’s throne room looking like the captain’s quarters from the Titanic, all decked out in fine linens, dark-stained wainscoting and gold-rimmed teacups. Hell, I could even see his court advisers wearing naval-style uniforms with gold epaulets and buttons. What their military may now lack in resources, it will more than make up for in sheer numbers and viable locations to attack from.

How do you like the set-up so far? I could go on and on (and I’m sure my next response will be just as long), but I want to give you a chance to react before I pitch my “big idea” to the world.

You have obviously thought more about Namor than I ever have. I’m awfully tempted to simply stand out of your way and let you go crazy, but I have to make a couple of comments.

In many ways we’re on the same page, but I have one nit-picky problem. Atlantis will, unless I’m mistaken, always be located in an ocean. An ocean means salt water. I mentioned this in my last post, but is there anything that is likely to corrode materials of any kind as quickly as salt water. I’m not talking about just technological items, but doesn’t salt water corrode most everything in it? Wouldn’t the Atlanteans have been forced to come up with some process of treating materials to protect them from the harmful effects of salt water? Or am I incorrect in my assumption on the dangers of salt water. I’ve been searching online for answers, and am having trouble finding anything helpful.

Beyond that, however, I do believe we’re in total agreement here. I had forgotten places like Symkaria, but countries like that are wonderful ways to draw in even more superhumans for the stories, yet, as you say, still tell stories with a little more meat on them. I really like this direction you have going and I think I will step out of the way and let you continue. I find it fascinating.

Again, I’m no scientist, but I’m pretty sure metals react differently in salt water. Gold, platinum, titanium, aluminum and stainless steel can all stand up pretty well to the ravages of the sea…although no metal should be placed up against another metal or galvanic corrosion could occur. A coating of protective paint, a wax finish or self-vulcanizing tape can help prevent potential damage. Oh, and ceramics are pretty much immune to corrosion. LESSON OVER. (But wouldn’t it be cool to see the Atlantean army all decked out in gold armor with big nautilus shells as helmets?)

Anyway, there are a few directions I’ve been thinking about for Sub-Mariner and Atlantis. The first theme would be something the Atlanteans could do on their own. Like I mentioned before, Atlantis should own its “airspace.” That means they control the shipping routes and they have say over who goes where and when. If someone breaks those agreements, the Atlanteans are free to take control of the situation. This could easily lead to the capture of nuclear submarines, the repossession of oil supplies and the taking of any number of import/export materials. Hell, they could seize control of the entire world’s economy if they saw fit. Might be a bit of a HUGE step for Namor’s goals, but it’s playable.

There’s also the piracy angle. Small bands of Atlanteans taking what they need from passers-by. Controlling, to a degree, the world’s tourism industry…or, conversely, working as the world police by cutting off illegal shipments of drugs and weapons. This storyline could start out with a few renegade governors allowing their city-states to proceed with piracy. The surface world could bring this to Namor’s attention and a civil war could break out within Atlantis. I’d also love to see the Atlantean Ambassador to the United Nations (has that been done before?).

I think the most complicated angle I’ve come up with involves Doom and Latveria. From the Marvel maps I’ve seen, Latveria is completely land-locked (with Transia and Symkaria in the region). But what if Doom decides that he needs a naval fleet to compete with other countries, or if he merely wants to set up his own shipping ports without having to rely on other countries to make deals with him? I say he strikes a deal with Namor to provide the locations. The Atlanteans may even take possession of a few small islands in the oceans and hand them over to Doom to strengthen his position in the world. The problem arises when Doom strikes alliances with other hostile countries and is soon mobilizing for war using the resources Namor has provided. Atlantis has been struggling to be more like Switzerland, but they end up working both sides of the equation in their efforts to remain neutral. Could call for some spiffy diplomatic showdowns.

The possibilities are endless, when you think about it. Atlantis is a country, but its boundaries are unlike any other in the world. And Atlantis itself has never really been examined as an entity…it’s always been about Namor getting overthrown or waging war with the surface world. We can put Sub-Mariner in a larger perspective while also adding to the depth of the Marvel Universe itself.

I think there’s also an avenue to explore some Lovecraftian villains in the title, something darker and deeper and more hideous than just a dude who dresses up like a shark. Another possible villain (or ally) comes out of left field…Diablo! Yes, the old Fantastic Four foe can alter the elemental make-up of matter. That’s something that could play huge in a civilization that depends on its water to breathe. His wizardry could aid the Atlanteans somehow too. Interesting, yes? Or maybe the Mole Man makes a play to have Subterranea recognized as a nation and Namor supports the effort…that’s one individual who threatens the existence of Atlantis because he controls the land underneath it. I’d love to see the UN meetings with all these various “nations” being discussed and represented.

Unfortunately, as much as the water environment adds interest to Namor’s world, it can also be a huge hindrance. His rogues gallery right now consists of mainly fish-based enemies. There are limitations to the back-and-forth allowed in any relationship he has because of the whole “most people can’t breathe underwater” thing. Makes sustained battles difficult, as well as romantic relationships with those who aren’t of his race. This is probably a big reason as to why Namor has never reached the same level of success as some of the other heroes.

By pursuing a chain of stories revolving around the politics and preservation of Atlantis itself, I think we can neutralize some of these limitations. It’s also a great opportunity to explore the politics of other Marvel nations and maybe even create some new countries. For instance, I’d love to see the Sub-Mariner dealing with the corrupt cartels in Madripoor. The place is an island and Atlantis could effectively put a stranglehold on it if they saw fit. Maybe that’s one reason why Namor and Doom get along so well…their countries have no direct contact with each other.

I dunno. I still see an image of Prince Namor sitting behind a huge desk in a room that looks like a turn-of-the-century ship captain’s office, all decked out in naval finery and plotting his attacks. Lots of ideas there. Pick your favorite or add to the list. This discussion must have brought up some concepts that you could expand on.

Lots of fun stuff in here. I certainly would love to see Doom as more or less a supporting character in the book. Doom is one of the most interesting characters in any universe, and he’s always going to make a book more complex. Political intrigue is something at which he should excel, and as we’ve seen in his most recent miniseries, Namor is no slouch in that area either. They both have enough experience with the other to know that they can’t trust each other and watching them trying to out-maneuver each other should be fascinating. Throwing in wild cards (like the Mole Man) is even better; but let’s try and take some of these concepts in baby steps.

Your concept of Atlantis owning all shipping lanes in it’s “airspace” is a fascinating one, although I’m not sure that I would use it as bluntly as you do. To me, this seems more like something that would make a good bargaining chip with the UN, something Namor could use to pressure them into working with his demands (“Well, if we wanted to, we could disrupt all of the shipping taking place above our territories”). Of course, the UN would need to know where that territory was, and more importantly, they’d want to verify it. It’s easy to know the airspace of France….France is right there on the map. We can see it. No one can see Atlantis, and if Namor says that his country sits under a certain shipping lane, the UN is going to want proof. By the same token, what if that area isn’t actually a good spot for Atlantis to be situated. Would Namor bluff his way along, claiming that Atlantis is wherever he currently needs it to be? If the UN came down to investigate, could Namor mock something up to protect his bluff (it’s not like the UN observers would be hanging out once they’d established that a city was where Namor said it was). Or perhaps they would stay; could they set up an underwater “embassy” from a UN country that would stay to monitor the Atlanteans. Then what does Namor do?

You mention Lovecraftian villains, and I think that’s an interesting idea. The Atlantean civilization is one of the oldest in the world. There should be myths and legends from it’s past that could be used as fodder for plotlines. Surely the Atlanteans possess secrets unknown to the rest of the world. When Namor first appeared he brought with him Monstro, a giant whale creature. Where did this creature come from, and does Namor have access to more like him? Perhaps this creature is just the tip of the iceberg. Perhaps the Atlanteans are acting as jailors for others like him; creatures from the Earth’s dark and distant past that the Atlanteans keep trapped to protect the world. What if the surface world, when tensions are high because of some of the events we’ve outlined before, attacks Atlantis and accidentally succeeds in releasing one of these creatures? Would they appreciate the centuries that the Atlanteans kept the creature contained, or be upset that Namor never revealed its existence? As an aside, this would be a perfect crossover with our Defenders team, mentioned many posts ago.

You’ve certainly helped make him an interesting character and shown that he can be taken in exciting new directions. I like a lot of your ideas. Surely Marvel would like to see one of their original characters succeed.

Ooh…you’re right! That would be a good storyline for our Defenders (and a nice way to acknowledge the original team’s lineup). The UN angle is important and could be played out in a number of ways. Have they ever touched on the whole aspect of making Atlantis an officially recognized nation? And having Doom as a regularly recurring character is a nice touch, seeing as how he doesn’t show up as much in the Marvel world anymore. Hell, throw in a little Hate Monger and some Red Skull and we can do a Super-Villain Team-Up relaunch! Okay, maybe not.

With the way things have played out recently, I think Marvel has a superb opportunity to reimagine Atlantis and its role in the Marvel Universe. Namor is a character who deserves to be given some added facets. And, if Marvel wants their playground to stay relevant, politics should take a larger role in the goings-on of the superhero community.