Dream Team: The Justice Society of America

Ah, the Justice Society of America, or the JSA, as it’s known to its friends. The JSA is DC’s oldest super-hero team, debuting during the early days of World War II. The concept, revolutionary at the time, is now old-hat; a publisher brought their most popular characters into one team, in one book. The JSA survived and prospered throughout the war years, but like almost every superhero title, their popularity waned after the war, and they were soon gone from the shelves. When DC relaunched the superhero genre in the late 50s and early 60s, they created the Justice League of America, an updating of the JSA in much the same way they’d updated the individual members of the JSA, like their new Flash and Green Lantern characters.

Soon, the publishers of DC Comics brought the JSA into their new and updated universe, but for years the JSA didn’t have much to differentiate it from it’s newer and younger counterpart, the JLA, except for that one key element; the JSA members were older. Otherwise, the JSA was just another super-team, and although they tried to maintain their own series a few times, they never seemed able to hold onto the popularity and respect due the original superheroes. However, when the JSA title launched, under the pen of Geoff Johns (and writing partners David Goyer and James Robinson in those early days), the old stars of DC Comics were finally given an identity separate from other teams; they were the legacy team.

DC has done something that Marvel has been unable to do, and that’s create a legacy for many of their heroic identities. Perhaps it’s because their heroes have always been more important than the secret identities, and therefore easier to replace, DC has managed to put succeeding generations of heroes behind the same mask. Flash is the best example, as we moved from Jay Garrick in the Golden Age, to Barry Allen in the Silver Age, to Wally West today. That’s the model for the JSA; it’s about the older generation teaching the younger generation what it means to be heroes. World War II veterans fight alongside teenagers, and everyone learns.

The problem with the JSA is that their roster is huge; they often have 20-30 members, even if they may not all be active at once. I find it difficult to narrow down the ones I think are vital to the team, but I’m going to do it. I’m going to give the group eight members; we normally do seven, but since the JSA is a team that has always been larger than other teams, I’m relaxing that restriction here. I’m also going to say that I love almost every member of this team, and I think all of them deserve a place here, so if your favorite is left out, it probably didn’t mean I don’t like that character; it just means that someone had to give. So, who makes the cut?

The Flash (Jay Garrick) and Green Lantern (Alan Scott): The JSA, to be the true legacy team that they are, must have some of the original members active. Honestly, there aren’t a lot of original members left alive, but these two are necessary to the team. Besides being quite powerful, they have the wisdom and the patience to deal with the younger generation and the experience to teach them. I’m going to leave out Wildcat, the other active member from the old days, for space reasons, which tears me up, as he’s a fascinating character in his own right.

Hourman and Black Canary: The son and daughter of the original members to beat those names, these two have gained their superhero identities by inheriting them from their parents. Both of them are smart and experienced, and their powers are a little bit more street level. Some will say Black Canary belongs with the Justice League, but I say phooey on that notion; her home is the JSA, just like it was her mother’s home. Besides, if we can get her out of the JLA, we can get her away from the horrid Green Arrow and put her with the man she’s much better suited for:

Dr. Mid-Nite: Although the current isn’t related to the original, he’s assumed the mantle of the new Dr. Mid-Nite with grace and style. Yes, he has the original Mid-Nite’s ability to see in the dark and some nice fighting skills, but he’s most useful to the team as a medical doctor. I don’t see why more superhero teams don’t look into having a medical doctor on staff; that comes in handy constantly. The man behind the mask is also interesting, and he and Black Canary became an item until DC decided to bring Green Arrow back from the dead. That was such a horribly bad idea, and I’d like to see Canary and Mid-Nite give it another shot.

Mr. Terrific: The Golden Age Mr. Terrific was, to be honest, something of a goofy character, and wearing ths slogan “Fair Play” on his costume didn’t make him look like any less of a tool. While the current Mr. Terrific doesn’t seem to have much better fashion sense than his predecessor, he’s a brilliant character, and the perfect leader and organizer of the team.

Stargirl and Jakeem Thunder: The new Stargirl has matured more than perhaps any other character in comics in the past few decades; this is someone who’s had an actual character arc, and readers have seen her grow from a spoiled little girl into a worthy hero. I have loved watching her learn from the members of the JSA, and she may be the strongest argument for the value of this team, and for training the younger generation in the field. Jakeem is also maturing, and while he’s not at Stargirl’s level yet, he needs to be on the team so they have someone to mentor. Plus, his friendship with Stargirl is strong and they have a great dynamic.

There’s my eight characters. Mr. Terrific leads Flash, Green Lantern, Black Canary, Dr. MidNite, Stargirl, Hourman, and Jakeem Thunder. What do you think?

I will admit up front that I am not as familiar with some of the newer characters in this book as I am with the traditional old-timers. My collection includes a few of the later issues of All-Star Comics and a pretty generous run of All Star Squadron, but with the various crises confusing or flat out eliminating most of the continuity of those books, I don’t know what’s relevant or not. I’ve read the initial four or five trades of the first JSA series and I read the first half dozen or so issues of this latest series, but my history with the title would be best described as “spotty.” That being said, I’m still going to give this a good go. I fear, however, that you may end up winning this round because I won’t be able to argue very effectively for my picks!

Off the top of my head, I know that the Justice Society has almost always had the presence of at least one Hawk family member…usually Hawkman. I know they’ve played host to Dr. Fate and The Spectre. And some quick research tells me that Atom, Starman and Sandman have all played parts on the team from time to time. Current continuity seems to preclude a few of them from being on any team since they’re either deceased or missing or their current incarnations have no real ties to the JSA, but I’ll give this thing a shot anyway. Here’s my JSA Dream Team:

John said Flash and Green Lantern: I find it difficult to argue with either of these and, as our presidential picks went a week or two ago, I think it’s pretty obvious that we both have great affection for these characters. The legacy of the characters, in both name and experience, is essential to any incarnation of the JSA. So Flash and Green Lantern are in.

John said Mister Terrific: Again, I’ve always liked this character and I think it’s important to have someone on the team who is a legacy by something other than relation. Mister Terrific is a smart man and a good leader.

John said Stargirl and Jakeem Thunder: Okay, here’s where we first part ways. I’m good with half of the duo here. Stargirl is a great character. I love the way she has proceeded to become a strong hero and overcome the fears and doubts she had when she first began. And her background is, perhaps, one of the strangest yet strongest ties to a DC legacy: her stepfather was the sidekick of a Golden Age character that eventually inherited the equipment of Starman. That makes her a unique necessity to the JSA. However, I’ve never had a good feeling about Jakeem. I just don’t get the allure of a street smart kid and his magic pen genie. Take that writing instrument away and he’s fairly useless. No, my pick for this slot would be Obsidian for a number of reasons. First, he’s Alan Scott’s son which adds a bit of depth and a new dimension to the legacy aspect. Alan should show fatherly concern whenever they’re in battle. Secondly, Obsidian is gay and I just think that’s something to showcase in the book. And third, his power set is much more interesting and tangible.

John said Hourman and Black Canary: Again, I think we’re going to split the difference here. Hourman is a unique concept for a hero…making him extremely useful for short periods of time, but vulnerable the rest of the day. I’ve always liked the look of the character too. But, in an effort to further solidify the legacy of the team, I’ve decided to throw Hourman’s wife onto the roster instead of Black Canary. Liberty Belle (formerly Jesse Quick) has inherited the powers of both of her parents, giving her flight, super speed and increased strength. That gives us not only a parent/child relationship on the team, but also a husband/wife dynamic.

John said Dr. Mid-Nite: Yeah…I’m not feeling him either. A surgeon who can see in the dark is helpful how exactly? Besides, if I don’t have Black Canary on the team to explore any sort of relationship, then Mid-Nite can be discarded as well. I would prefer to fill this slot with another legacy character who played a prominent role in the second volume of the series: Sandman. Again, I feel that his power set is useful to the team. He has the experience of being both a former sidekick to an original team member and a former chairman of the JSA itself. Plus, he seems to be the resident detective whose skills would play well with Mister Terrific’s science background. And, with Terrific’s current position in Checkmate taking up a good portion of his time, I’d even return the chairmanship to Sandman.

So, my lineup is as follows: Sandman leading a team of Flash, Green Lantern, Mister Terrific, Stargirl, Obsidian, Hourman and Liberty Belle. I suspect a counter-punch is imminent…

Well, I can’t punch too hard, as you agreed with half of my line-up! That may be a first for us here in Dream Team Central. As for the ones you disagreed with, I’m stuck with the problem that I really like my choices, but I like your characters as well. Let me see if I can agree with half of your new picks as well.

I love Sandman, and thought his time as chairman was one of the best eras of the book. He was so close to making my roster, and since you chose him as well, who am I to say no? He’s in, and he can be leader (especially since his new costume is so cool, modeled after the original Sandman).

I didn’t like Obsidian for many years, as I think his early appearances were characterized by him being something of a waffling loser with no self-esteem. That being said, ever since he turned evil, and then came back to the ranks of herodom, he’s had a strength that he was lacking before. I think the writer of Manhunter has used him to great effect, and I do like having him on the team with his father, since these two have a lot of issues to work through. He’s also in.

That means we agree on the team except for that one last slot. I have to be honest; I would have used Black Canary in my JLA dream team, but I was saving her for my JSA dream team. I know she’s a founding member of the JLA in the post-Crisis DC Universe, but I truly felt she fit into the JSA better than she ever did the JLA. That being said, I think she fits into the Birds of Prey better than either team, so I might be willing to let her go from my JSA team if I wasn’t replacing her with Liberty Belle. I agree that having a husband and wife on the team, as well as two legacy heroes is a great idea, and I loved Liberty Belle when she went by the name Jesse Quick and appeared in the Flash comic, but lately she’s been putting me to sleep. I want to like this character again, and there is a lot of plot potential here…..oh, I give up. You win. She’s in.

I’m fine with your roster: Sandman as leader, with Green Lantern, Flash, Mr. Terrific, Hourman, Liberty Belle, Stargirl and Obsidian.

And can we put Dr. Mid-Nite on the team as someone who stays back at base and waits for people to be injured? He can hang out with Ma Kunkle.

What the…?!? Who are you and what have you done with my friend John? Seriously? That’s it? I was sure you’d have some sort of trump card in your back pocket that you would confound me with and I’d be forced to bow down to your more convincing reasoning. Now I’m just confused, but happy nonetheless.

I agree that Mid-Nite should hang around as a supporting character. I was originally going to suggest the same thing for Mister Terrific because of his involvement with Checkmate, but I feared that his lack of appearances wouldn’t be fair to such a great character. The same thing for Flash. I was going to suggest that he take a backseat to Liberty Belle and act solely as a mentor for her, but then I thought about the great dynamic he and Green Lantern share and I could imagine a storyline where the two of them just reminisced over a drink or two.

I originally wanted to put Cyclone on the team, but thought better of it because…well…she’s just kind of annoying.

So that does it, huh? The Justice Society of America Dream Team is Sandman, Flash, Green Lantern, Mister Terrific, Stargirl, Obsidian, Hourman & Liberty Belle.

Casting Call: Justice League

I know we just did our Dream Team for the Justice League last week, but it got me to thinking about how there aren’t a lot of DC movies being made and the ones that have been made are a mix of ups and downs…the reinvigorated Batman franchise has made huge gains both financially and credibly, but the latest Superman relaunch was a bit of a disappointment. And that supposed younger Justice League film never got off the ground in light of last winter’s writers’ strike. So, I thought it would be fun for John and I to fill out our version of the Justice League cast…

Wonder Woman: This is probably the toughest decision to make. The right actress has to have a certain age and wisdom to them, yet still be young and look good in the costume. She also can’t be one of those lithesome types so popular these days…WW is big and strong. That’s a tough description to fill. My first reaction would be to go with Kate Beckinsale, but that just seems so obvious. Plus, she might actually be too pretty for the job. If I knew she could act (aside from her role on the new incarnation of American Gladiators), I’d pick the tough and beautiful Gina Carano. Instead, I’m going to have to go with one of the early rumors: Charisma Carpenter.

Green Lantern: I know I’m going to have a hard time coming up with some young, dark-haired guys to fill some of these roles…guys that aren’t generic and one-dimensional (*cough*BrandonRouth*cough*). However, Kyle Rayner has a certain earnestness to him that I think one particular person can conjure up. As a matter of fact, he was also rumored to be up for this role recently: Friday Night Lights‘ Scott Porter.

Flash: In my mind, Wally West could only be played by one person, and that’s the person who has long been attached to the role in a supposed solo movie that may or may not ever get made: Ryan Reynolds.

Plastic Man: Wow. This is a tough one. He has to have a good sense of humor and even have a sort of goofy looking face. Yet he has to be a believable actor in order to pull it all off. Whoever plays Plastic Man should be a bit taller and on the thin side. I thought I had this thought wrapped up, but then I got hit with a weird epiphany and now I can’t decide between two good actors. One is a bit younger and definitely embodies the actual “look” of Plastic Man. The other is a couple years older and would need to dye his hair, but I think has a stronger personality for the character. The two choices are: Jesse Bradford or Neil Patrick Harris.

Animal Man: Buddy Baker is just a normal guy. There’s nothing special about him. He’s a family man who just happened upon something wonderful. This position is ripe for an established character actor, one of those types that you’ve seen in a bunch of movies and has pulled off his acting so well that you can never remember his real name. I have the perfect name: Alan Tudyk.

Mister Miracle: This one was probably the toughest for me solely because you see Scott Free out of costume maybe once every fourteen years. What does he look like? What sort of person is he out of his superhero role? I dunno. I found one panel with his actual face and I just thought he looked a bit like Casey Affleck.

Black Lightning: Jefferson Pierce is obviously a bit older than some of the heroes. He’s been around the block a few times, has a certain roughness to him, but could also come across as a quiet leader if need be. He has a teaching background, has two daughters and is definitely an established professional. My first impulse was to pick LL Cool J, but then I thought he looked too nice and easygoing. Black Lightning has more of a burning intensity to him. To that end, I selected someone who has seen a lot of screen time lately and someone who was actually cast to play John Stewart in the now-stalled Justice League film: Common.

That’s my cast of seven. I’m sure John has his own opinions. Hopefully we can come to a jovial consensus.

I’m a huge fan of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel. I think the casts are good and don’t often get enough credit. That being said, I simply can not see Charisma Carpenter as Wonder Woman. I’m not saying that she’s a bad actress, as much as I’m saying that she simply doesn’t have the gravity and weight (and I’m not talking pounds) that she would need to portray the Amazon princess. That may not be a fair assessment from me, but that’s how I see it.

Unfortunately, finding someone to fill the role is difficult, since so many women in Hollywood are reed-like stick figures. I’d be tempted to throw out the name of Lucy Lawless, another early rumor for this role, but I already secured her a role as Black Widow, so I won’t push my luck. Instead, I’m going to look to Sci-Fi Channel’s late, lamented Farscape, and nominate Claudia Black, who has the look, the strength and the gravity to portray Princess Diana.

I don’t have a problem with Scott Porter, and certainly some poor actor from that underrated show should get a break in the big time. I say, let’s use him!

Love Ryan Reynolds! Perfect!

As for Plastic Man, I don’t think there’s any choice here. I like Jesse Bradford, but there’s no one better than Neil Patrick Harris for this role. The problem with Plastic Man is that, if you take his humor out of context, he can come across as simply obnoxious. You need someone who can be in your face and over the top, yet still likable and come across as real. That’s what Neil Patrick Harris does every week on How I Met Your Mother. He’s the clear choice.

I really hate to agree with you so much, but I think Alan Tudyk would make a great Animal Man. I need to find someone here I can argue, besides Wonder Woman.

Well, I can argue with you about Scott Free! Actually, I think Casey Affleck is a great actor; his recent turns in The Assassination of Jesse James…I’m Not Typing the Rest and Gone Baby Gone were amazing, and I’ve enjoyed him in other roles as well. However…..ugh. No, I can’t really argue with you on this one either. He wouldn’t be my first choice, but there’s absolutely no reason why he couldn’t do a fantastic job in the role.

I can’t really argue about Common either; he’d be great in the role.

Well, I could try and pick a false argument with some of your choices, but that seems pointless. You made some really great picks. I just need you to agree on Neil Patrick Harris, and then we can fight about Wonder Woman, although I don’t know how you could possibly disagree on Claudia Black.

As far as Wonder Woman goes, I was looking for someone who was slightly older and had some ethnicity to them, but wasn’t an everyday name that would have previous recognition attached to them. I mean, you look at Lynda Carter from back in the day and she was just the perfect embodiment for Diana Prince. I think Susan Sarandon would’ve had a similar resonance too. And I was toying with the idea of selecting Rhona Mitra, but I wasn’t sure she was “beefy” enough for the role. To that end, I don’t mind the selection of Claudia Black. I’ve certainly never heard of her before. She’s older and rather tall. Plus, she’s like a fanboy dream, with appearances in Hercules, Xena, Farscape, Stargate, Beastmaster, Moonlight and Pitch Black and videogame voiceover work with God of War, Conan, Lords of Everquest and Crysis. I say she’s in!

And, of course, I have no problems with NPH as Plastic Man. He’s hilarious AND a good actor.

Wow. That was much quicker and easier than I had anticipated. Here’s our heroic lineup for the “Meanwhile…Comics!” version of a Justice League movie:

Top 5 Presidential Candidates in the DC Universe

Some of you may have heard, but here in America, there’s an election for president coming up in a few weeks. It’s ok if you weren’t aware of it; the news media hasn’t really been covering it much. Anyone could have easily missed it.

Jason and I thought we’d take a look at those characters in the DC and Marvel universes who might make good candidates for president. These are the characters that are, first of all, eligible: they have to be American citizens, and also have to be near the age requirement (since most companies are very ambiguous about the ages of their characters, I’m going to choose those who at least seem like they might be old enough. No Teen Titans need apply). DC Comics is first, and we’ll hit the Marvel characters closer to the election.

Who would I nominate?

1. Jay Garrick: Without a doubt the Golden Age Flash would be my top choice for President. He has a college education, he was a popular sports star before he got his powers, and as a member of the Justice Society of America, he’d be immensely popular. Plus, unlike a lot of heroes, I don’t believe he’s got any negative public events in his past. He’s never been arrested, possessed by evil, or had his name smeared. He’s a good guy, with a sensible head on his shoulders. He’s an older man, but he’s sure not any older than John McCain.

2. Perry White: It looks like he was badly wounded in Final Crisis, but for the moment we’re going to ignore that. Again, we have a figure that many in the public know. He’s a well respected journalist and has led the Daily Planet for years. He also is without scandal, and is again, a man with a cool head and the ability to survive a crisis. Plus, he’s someone who knows how to sniff out the truth, and won’t be snowed by advisors.

3. Barbara Gordon and Dinah Lance: These are two who I think would make the perfect ticket, although I’ll be the first to admit that it would be a hard sell. Gordon is highly educated, but not in anything relating to the political sciences. Plus, it would be two women on the ticket, and one of them physically handicapped. However, if they’d be willing to come clean about who they are, I think they might have a chance. Gordon is possibly one of the smartest characters in comics, and she tempers are intelligence with compassion and common sense, which can be all too rare. I think Lance (otherwise known as Black Canary) would make a perfect VP; someone who can bring a little more fire to the ticket, and who’s willing to get things done. Together these two would make a very strong team, as they have for years.

4. Michael Holt (Mr. Terrific): Although he’s never held an office, he has the education, with PHD’s in both political science and law. He’s a brilliant man, and not to run this into the ground again, but he’s also a compassionate and loving man. Plus, he began life with little, and grew up with a brother who was mentally challenged, so he understands the needs and frustrations of the poor and those with disabilities. And again, I don’t know of any real scandals in his past.

5. John Stewart: My last choice has military experience, as a member of the US Marines, as well as having experience in the largest military in the Universe, the Green Lantern Corps. Stewart has the qualities that exemplify all of my choices, and he’s seen more of the universe than any of them. He’s not someone who would be cowed by a terrorist or a raving leader of a rival nation. His nerves of steel would make him a Commander-in-Chief who could not be intimidated.

I’d vote for any of them.

Really? You’d vote for Perry White? Great Caesar’s Ghost! That guy has to be about 112 years old. Scary. Could you imagine Jimmy Olsen being a heartbeat from the most powerful seat in the free world? It sends a cold chill up my spine.

It’s not often you get to overtly fuse politics with superheroes (or their supporting cast). Sure, many creators over the years have subtly infused their own leanings into certain characters. But overall, the heroes are more concerned with traveling to distant dimensions or battling imminent threats to all of civilization. They don’t have time for petty squabbles over land use rights or foreclosure crises.

When discussing this topic with John, I let him know that I always imagined DC as sort of the old school version of the GOP in comparison to Marvel’s more liberal-leaning characters and settings. And I think you can find a lot of parallels in the way the two universe are set up and how the heroes operate. DC has had government involvement in their world for decades, but when Marvel introduces the seemingly “fascist” Superhero Registration Act, the fans erupt in protest. I know that’s a simplification of the situation, but it sets up my point. DC heroes are icons in costume before they’re people. Marvel’s characters are built on their alter egos and resonant with the “common folk” more easily.

I have the same criteria for selecting these candidates as John: legal age and citizenship. Beyond that, I’m not really concerned with scouring their backgrounds for weird instances of alien possession or mind control or minor penal infractions. Hell, after all the crap that takes place there on a daily basis, I would think that the regular citizens in these universes would just be relieved to have a President who wasn’t blue and four-armed. I mean, seriously, the DC peeps elected Lex Luthor. My picks couldn’t possibly be worse than that decision!

I played around with the idea of trying to select all non-hero types from DC, but the pickings were pretty slim. People with some government or police/detective work were easy to find, but their personalities or pasts seemed to disqualify them. Names like Harry Stein, Sarge Steel and Slam Bradley came to mind. Hal Jordan seemed like a perfect GOP analogue, except for that pesky “went nuts and killed countless innocent people” thing. I was also interested in nominating Jonny Double, but only because his creator, Len Wein, described him as “a down-beat Don Quixote in a society that frowns on windmills. A once white knight in rusty armor searching for that last dragon to slay. The poor man’s Peter Pan.” Awesome.

Instead, I chose these five contenders, in descending order:

5. Lucas “Snapper” Carr: Stop laughing, I’m serious! No single non-hero knows the hero community better than Snapper. He’s been involved with the covert operations of Checkmate, held his own as a member of the inter-dimensional Blasters, and even had his hands replaced by Vril Dox. How cool is that? Snapper also relished the time he spent mentoring Hourman and Young Justice. He’s a born…uh…leader? Plus, he has a gimmick. The media LOVES gimmicks. I can already hear the slogans…”Picking the President is a SNAP!”

4. Noah Kuttler (Calculator): Look, if John is going to nominate Oracle, then I can throw in Calculator. This is supposed to be the evil GOP side of things, right? Seriously though, if Lex Luthor can win an election, anyone can. Calculator has way too many criminal contacts to NOT be able to put the fix in. He’s smart, but more in the “clever” or “conniving” sense. He’s an accomplished strategist and has the resources to dig up dirt for an overwhelming smear campaign against whoever opposed him.

3. Doctor Will Magnus: It’s funny that I gravitated towards smart, science-y types when I was thinking of presidential candidates. I guess, after the last eight years or so, that I’m not-so-subliminally hoping for some intelligence in the Oval Office…perhaps even an honest-to-gosh “rocket scientist.” Say hello to Will Magnus, creator of the Metal Men. Sure, he’s technically bipolar, aided and abetted a criminal gang and even killed a dude once. But really, who hasn’t had indiscretions in their recent, unstable past? Besides, it’d be comforting to have a president who favors the classic Ward Cleaver look of tweed suits and pipe smoking.

2. Michael Holt (Mr. Terrific): I agree with John on this one. Fourteen Ph.D’s…Olympic Gold Medal-winning decathlete…self-made millionaire. He’s a very smart man (third-smartest on DC’s Earth), an expert problem-solver and seems to always want to fight the good fight. He has government experience with his involvement in Checkmate and has leadership skills from his chairmanship of the JSA. He has felt tragic loss and demonstrated strong compassion. The only stumbling block for him might be his religion: he’s an avowed Atheist.

1. Alan Scott: All the others are plausible (especially Mr. Terrific), but this is my number one choice. Alan Scott has the ideal story to showcase his campaign. From his humble beginnings as a locomotive engineer, to his stint as head of the Gotham Broadcasting Company, to his heady days as a member of the heroic JSA, Alan Scott has lived the American Dream. Yes, he was brought before the House Un-American Activities Committee…and he more or less abandoned his first wife and two children…and his second wife vainly tried to sell her soul. But hey, he was on the right side of the Checkmate thing AND he now rocks an eye patch. That’s an instant winner! I could easily see a Scott administration. I’m thinking he’d probably pick someone like Jay Garrick as his running mate, a solid colleague who’s always had his back. I’m picturing King Faraday as Secretary of Defense. Maybe Michael Holt as Secretary of State. And wouldn’t it be fun to have his old sidekick Doiby Dickles doddering around as his Chief of Staff? Great Scott!

Dream Team: Justice League

I believe that Jason and I will both admit that we do more Marvel posts than DC posts. That being said, I do enjoy the DC Universe (even if it’s current direction leaves me cold) and so, along those lines, we want to explore those characters more often. So, we thought we’d start by using the most famous DC team of all time for one of our infamous Dream Team posts: the Justice League!

Many people might consider the Dream Team of the Justice League to be pretty self-explanatory; it’s the big seven, the founding (pre-Crisis) members, and the ones that Grant Morrison used during his run. That august assemblage included Superman, Batman, Martian Manhunter, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and Flash. I have to disagree, however. I think that there are a lot of really interesting characters that serve better on the league than many of the big names. However, I do want to steal the number of heroes, and cap our team off at seven members. For those familiar with the Justice League, let’s start a little wager: how many of my team members will be from the Detroit era of the JLA? Place your bets now folks!

First, I’d choose the one character who I feel is an indispensable member of the league: The Martian Manhunter. Yes, he’s currently dead in the DCU, but really, how long can that be expected to last? I think the Martian Manhunter is the heart of the JLA, much like Captain America is the heart of the Avengers, and I feel the team is always stronger when he’s a part of it. He’s in.

I also am going to keep one other member of the classic group, and that’s The Flash. Yes, Wally West does well as a member of the Teen Titans, but he’s been a member of both groups in the past, and can be again. He’s actually one of the few characters in comics who, I think, works equally well in more than one supergroup, and can actually be considered a vital part of both.

Next up is a personal favorite of mine, Mr. Miracle. He was a member during the Giffen/DeMatteis days, and I thought that he managed to make it through their run with his dignity intact, which was not always an easy task. He is far and away my favorite of Kirby’s Fourth World characters, and I think he brings a hefty dose of skill into the League, a group that normally subsists more on raw power. If you’re not including Batman in the League (and I’m not), then you truly need someone who understands subtlety and finesse. Mr. Miracle fits the bill.

My fourth choice is a character who, for years, I had no respect for. I considered him largely useless and somewhat silly. However, over the past few years The Atom has begun to really grow on me. I think some of that may be his strong showing in the Justice League Unlimited cartoon, or perhaps I’m growing up, and I’m beginning to realize that, as with Mr. Miracle, raw power isn’t everything. The Atom also supplies the League with a scientist, which is rare in the League. Every third Avenger seems to be a scientist of some sort, but not so with the JLA, and that makes the Atom that much more unique.

Fifth I choose The Red Tornado. I’ve always liked his look, I think his powers are neat and different, and I enjoy the element of the synthetic man trying to fit into a team of flesh and blood heroes. Hey, I’m a fan of the Vision too; what can I say? Someone who is on the outside looking in resonates with me.

I’m going to throw in a young rookie; when we discussed the Avengers, Jason suggested that every team needs a young hero for the other heroes to mentor. I’m not sure if I agree with that (I pooh-poohed the idea at the time), but there certainly can be an interesting dynamic between an inexperienced hero and those who have been saving people their entire lives. I choose The Ray for that honor. I’ve always enjoyed the character, I think he has an amazing look, and he’s certainly powerful enough for the JLA. He worked with the Martian Manhunter quite a bit as a member of the Justice League Task Force, but he still has a lot to learn.

Finally, for my last choice, I’m going to pick someone from near obscurity: Animal Man. He was a member of the Justice League Europe team, but only lasted about ten issues, since Grant Morrison was turning his life upside down in his own comic at the time. I’ve always enjoyed the character, and I’d like to see what he could do on the team if he was actually given the chance.

So, I have Martian Manhunter, Mr. Miracle, Flash, the Atom, Red Tornado, the Ray and Animal Man. I’d love to have Atom as the leader; I think he’d do a good job, and it would make for a more interesting team dynamic then using Martian Manhunter, the next logical choice.

How many member did I choose from the Detroit era? Just one: the Martian Manhunter. I really tried to fit Vibe into the group, but sadly, it wasn’t meant to be.

It’s tough for me to rationalize throwing a dead guy into the mix, but to each their own I guess. Did Vibe have any superpowers beyond being stereotypical and annoying?

And what’s with shunning all the females?

Look, as much as I praise Marvel for pretty much shaping my childhood imagination, I have to give some of the credit to the Justice League as well. With the exception of a few issues, I have a run of Justice League of America comics that starts around issue #40 and goes straight through to the end of the Detroit years. Add to that a hefty run of Giffen’s Justice League revamp (later renamed Justice League International and then Justice League America), a complete collection of Justice League Europe (which, correct me if I’m wrong, was also then renamed Justice League International? That’s confusing) and a substantial portion of the later JLA series and you could easily conclude that I’m a HUGE JL fan.

I agree that the original seven members of the JL were probably considered the Dream Team at the time, since they consisted of all of DC’s major characters, including several well-received Silver Age revamps (Flash and Green Lantern, specifically). However, I also agree that just because they were big names didn’t necessarily mean that they should play together on a team. I find the iconic status of the “Big Three” to be rather daunting when it comes to building an effective network of heroes. Really, why do you need anyone else, aside from the sheer numbers perspective? A team like that doesn’t lend itself to creative storytelling.

I would guess that my biggest influences, when it comes to who I believe deserves to be in the ultimate JL lineup, are the “satellite years” and the team that launched out of the Legends miniseries. These were some of my favorite 70s and 80s characters and, to this day, some of them are still woefully underused.

That said, let me follow protocol and trash your lineup while also revealing why mine is so much better thought-out and worthwhile…

John said Martian Manhunter: Really? THAT’S your marquee selection? Blah. Aside from the running joke of him being obsessed with Oreos, I just never really related to J’onn. I’ve always felt that he was a good teammate, but whenever the focus is on him I can’t grasp a connection to him. I know that he’s been repeatedly set up as team leader, but the subordinate relationships away from him were always more interesting. He’s also become one of those characters whose powers continue to evolve and change to the point of being ridiculous. Thankfully, he’s dead (for now) and I think that really takes him off the table. My pick for the “legacy” position would be Green Lantern (Hal Jordan). He has the military/tactical background to be a true leader for the team, his fearlessness has been tested, and the visual potential for his powers really lends itself to a good creative team.

John said Flash: Agreed 100%. Wally West has consistently been one of my favorite DC characters. I think his powers are essential to a strong team. Plus, Flash lends a mix of youth and experience that few other DC heroes possess.

John said Mister Miracle: Also agreed, as long as it’s Scott Free in the costume and not the recently relaunched urban Shilo Norman version from Grant Morrison. Mister Miracle always struck me as one of those reluctant types who was a hero out of necessity instead of virtue. I like that dynamic.

John said The Atom: I’m sorry, I just never got a good feel for Ray Palmer and the new guy in the costume hasn’t done much for me either. I like the unique powers of Atom, but he has no resonance for a major hero team…kind of like how Ant-Man doesn’t really fit well in an ultimate Avengers lineup. If we want some unique powers with a personality, I think we could do worse than to look at Plastic Man. Eel O’Brien is an old school member who has sort of come and gone under the radar. He has a dark past but a lighthearted persona, and I feel that that dichotomy is worth exploring.

John said Red Tornado: Again, I have no real feeling for this character. He looks cool and the concept of a synthezoid hero is intriguing, but the “woe is me” emotion-based, Pinocchio-like storyline that Brad Meltzer recently rolled out left me cold. I would rather replace this choice with a female, just for contrast. I was leaning towards Wonder Woman, partially for the iconic feel but also for leadership reasons. However, I think the softer Zatanna would be more appropriate. The self-doubt she has recently demonstrated adds a certain vulnerability to a character who was never completely strong to begin with. And she has pretty nebulous powers that could be exploited nicely.

John said Animal Man: Curious. He was on a short list I scribbled down and, by process of elimination, ended up being in my top seven too. With Captain Atom and Doctor Fate both being out of commission right now and Firestorm not the same character he used to be, Animal Man is my default choice for this position. I think by assembling the widest range of powers possible, we show a true cross-section of the “global reach” of the team.

(As an aside, I really liked the idea of the Justice League setting up embassies or charters instead of being a global police force stationed in America.)

John said The Ray: Yeah, I could see this pick working out nicely. He’s got a bit of the legacy going on and he’s a pretty powerful hero when he can stay focused. It’s a good selection for a young, mentor-able character. However, I would like to throw out a more controversial name: Resurrection Man. Very interesting powers and an underdeveloped history lead to broader interactions and plot possibilities. I could almost see the team sort of “finding” him somewhere and bringing him along as a pet project, like cleaning up a homeless guy on one of those makeover shows. There’s a lot of potential in the character.

So, to sum up, my Justice League Dream Team would have Green Lantern leading a group comprised of Flash, Mister Miracle, Plastic Man, Zatanna, Animal Man and Resurrection Man. I worked a woman into the team. There’s one character that can definitely fly, one that can hover on special gizmos and one who can fly if the appropriate animal is nearby. I’ve got magic powers, speed powers and stretchy powers (two if you count GL’s shape-making ability). About the only thing not covered is a true strength-based character, but I’m okay with it…and Resurrection Man could cover that area depending on the circumstances.

The biggest problem I can find is that I have three heroes with the word “Man” in their names…someone feeling insecure with their sexuality?

I anxiously await your almost certain rebuttal.

I can not believe that I neglected to include any women in the group. Huge oversight.

Wait. Hal Jordan? Hal freakin’ Jordan? The most boring character in the DC Universe, in any time period? I’m one of those people who agreed 100% with DC removing Hal from his position as Green Lantern, although I disagreed 100% with the way they did it. Making him a mass murderer and psycho did not make him interesting; it made him an ugly plot device. I have no problem with there being a Green Lantern on the team, and can even partially agree that a Green Lantern on the team is necessary and iconic, but Hal Jordan? Please God no. Pick another GL. Goodness knows there are tons of them. John Stewart or Guy Gardner would be fine, although my choice would be Kyle Rayner. I won’t bother to argue the Martian Manhunter point, except to note that he’s been involved with every incarnation of the JLA except for the current one, and Green Lantern has not.

Yay to Wally West! Might I point out that he has a very good relationship with Kyle Rayner?

Yay to Mr. Miracle. While I don’t hate Shilo Norman, I agree that Scott Free is the one, true Mr. Miracle, and my choice for the costume.

I like Plastic Man. I think that, in losing Atom, we lose our most intelligent and scientific member, but I can deal with that, since that’s never been integral to the JLA anyway. If you get a good artist, Plastic Man can be one of the most visually fascinating characters on the page (as a side note, another visually fascinating character for a good artist? Kyle Rayner).

I can lose Red Tornado. However, I hesitate to replace him with Zatanna. I normally love magic based heroes, and the group does need a female, but I have never liked Zatanna. First of all, considering your feelings about magic evinced in our Dr. Strange entry, I can’t believe you’d be ok with her powers, which are even less defined than Dr. Strange’s. She seriously has no structure or limits to what she can do. Second, as a character I find her rather dull and difficult to relate to. Her recent self-doubt stems from her making that absolutely atrocious decision in Identity Crisis, a decision which makes her one of the more loathsome characters in the DC Universe, and with the current competition for that title, that’s saying a lot. No, there must be a better female character for the series.

I would be tempted to nominate Wonder Woman, as I truly like the character, and think that she’s more interesting when she’s not around Superman and Batman. Free to interact with the other members of the team without the two main guns of the DCU horning in and trying to dominate her time on-screen, I think she could add an interesting element to the mix of characters in any team. However, she’s still one of the trinity of holy characters at DC and you’ll never be free to do as much with her in a team setting, since the constraints of her own book tie her down. Plus, we have two members of the Big Seven already, so I’m not sure how necessary she is.

As I work through the female options for the team, I’d like to point out how few females have been members of the JLA. Seriously, compared to the Avengers or the X-Men, there aren’t a whole heck of a lot of them; I don’t think any incarnation of the team has had more than one or two on the team at a time. I have a few that I’m thinking of for membership, but I’m going to start by suggesting Dr. Light. I always liked her, although I preferred her as the somewhat short tempered and angry Dr. Light that she started as, rather than the rather weak milksop she was by the time Justice League International ended. Still, she has a great power, and I think she could work.

Yay Animal Man!

Hmmm. I expected the Ray to be shunted, and he actually did better with you than expected. Resurrection Man comes out of left field, for sure. I loved the character and his series. My biggest problem with him is whether or not you’re breaking the rules of Dream Team entries by introducing a character who’s never been a member. Aren’t there enough Leaguers around to choose from without dragging in a new character to add to the roster? I’m going to wait to see what your thoughts are, and we can go from there.

So, as Round Two comes to an end, we have some confirmed team members: Flash, Mr. Miracle, Animal Man and Plastic Man. We’re over halfway there! Now we need you to pick a Green Lantern who doesn’t make me fall into a coma everytime I read his adventures, decide whether you like Dr. Light and give me a ruling on whether Resurrection Man is a fair pick.

Wow. We don’t usually agree this easily, huh? You must be coming around to my superior way of thinking. I am an enlightened human being. Please, keep your praise to a minimum. I’ll wait.

All done clapping and fawning? Okay then, let’s get this wrapped up.

I’m going to make a group of decisions all related to one another right here and right now. I think this will make sense in the end. First of all, I concede the GL pick to you. Kyle Rayner is in. He has a great relationship with Flash and gives us that extra firepower. My only problem with him is that he’s all wrapped up in the GL Corps as their version of Neo from The Matrix. That’s both annoying and troubling when it comes to his availability. But I can live with it and he makes the most sense.

If we remove Hal Jordan, then we’ve lost the senior leadership of the team. To that end, and to bring in a female character (because I don’t feel that Dr. Light plays nice here considering the implications of her villainous male counterpart), I suggest we do add Wonder Woman to the team. She’s a strong leader and, quite honestly, her solo series always seems to be written in a different universe anyway. I have a feeling that any team we would end up assembling would focus more on the relationships of the younger characters and Wonder Woman will be there as more of an advisor and extra hand in battle.

Now, to your final point, I could make an argument to include Resurrection Man. A little more than two-thirds of the way through his eponymous series, he was offered probationary status in the JL. It’s also been said that he and Vandal Savage have been fighting each other for generations…which would make for a pretty cool storyline involving the Justice League. However, the more I think about it, I’m not sure he’s up for teamwork. Sure, his power would be fascinating to investigate and develop in the heat of battle, and he could probably tell some great stories, but he’s not really grounded in the mythology.

So here’s where I argue with myself over the necessity of including a “rookie” character. We all know that the Marvel and DC Universes are inherently different. Marvel is all about “real” characters with flaws and weaknesses. DC has always portrayed an iconic status in its heroes. You could get away with putting a young turk on the Avengers…making them prove themselves, showing the team helping to develop the next era of hero. But the Justice League is about being the best immediately. People rely on them. It’s no place to toss a greenhorn.

That’s why I’m going to voluntarily withdraw Resurrection Man. However, I don’t want to automatically bring back in your suggestion either. The Ray is, technically, part of the Freedom Fighters and they probably need him more. No, I’m going to nominate someone who has been around for a long time, has a somewhat similar power to The Ray, is a current member of the JLA and definitely ups the diversity factor of the team: Black Lightning.

I think that explanation came together nicely. So, my round two decisions: Wonder Woman leads a team composed of Green Lantern, Flash, Mister Miracle, Animal Man, Plastic Man and Black Lightning. Strange. Just looking at the names, it has the feel of two different teams being stitched together, but not in a bad way.

I argued with myself about whether or not to bring in Wonder Woman, and while I decided no at the time, I’m fine with her being included now.  I also love the idea of her being the team leader.  Theoritically, she led the team one other time, but it was a rather lame team, and she didn’t do much actual leading (until the awful crossover where Ice died, and then she acted like a moron, just like almost everyone in the League at the time).  She’s definitely in.

Black Lightning.  It is something of a slam dunk, isn’t it?  He’s smart, he’s got great powers, he’s adds some diversity and he has an interesting personality.  I think he’d make an excellent addition.  In the real universe, I’d want to ask his creator, Tony Isabella, for his blessing, since I understand there has been some….let’s call them disagreements between Isabella and DC Comics on who actually owns the character (DC claims Black Lightning was created under a work for hire agreement, which Isabella stridently claims was not the case) and while I don’t have facts on which side is correct, we certainly can look at historical precedent to see what sort of track record DC has with playing fair with creators.  That being said, this is a dream team, and hopefully Tony Isabella would give the okay, so let’s include him.

Wonder Woman.  Green Lantern.  Flash.  Mr. Miracle.  Animal Man.  Black Lightning.  Plastic Man.  I really like that group.  You have skilled superheroes who’ve been doing this for years and legacy heroes who have come into their own; you have heroes with tremendous power, and some who trade more in skill; you have heroes who come from a regal background and some from an urban environment and one from another planet.  It works for me.

John and Jason’s Agreed Upon 20 Things Every Superhero Comic Collection Needs

We promise to stop milking this idea and move on after this post, but now that we’ve both given our picks for the 20 things every superhero comic collection needs (which are both quite good, and any items on there are worth your time) we thought we’d bring it all together for one final post, with things we both agree on. Here you go:

1. Starman: I won’t continue to belabor this. It’s great. DC is releasing it in new omnibus editions, collecting the entire run and a few of the miniseries that James Robinson wrote which tied into the main story. The first volume is available now and the second is coming in early 2009. Or, if you prefer, track down the original issues; for the first few years James Robinson answered the letters pages personally, and encouraged people to discuss issues beyond the comics, particularly collecting. Some letters pages didn’t deal with comics at all, yet they were all interesting, and it gave a reader the sense of community that is lacking in many comics today. One more reason these comics were so unique.

2. Giffen and DeMatteis’ Justice League: Again, all I’ll do is encourage you to check out the new hardcover collections DC is printing of this series, starting at the first issue. The first two volumes are available now, and more are sure to come.

3. The Authority: These are also available in trade paperbacks. I highly recommend just the first 12 issues by Warren Ellis and Bryan Hitch, which were at one time collected into one giant hardcover, although I don’t know if it’s still in print.

4. Invincible by Robert Kirkman: Possibly the best young hero comic being published today, and one of the best superhero comics being published overall. If you’ve never read it, dive in without reading about them on the internet, as there are surprises in store. Image collects these in trades regularly, and you can also snag an annual hardcover Ultimate collection, which contains a full 12 issues. Great stuff.

5. Squadron Supreme by Mark Gruenwald: Perhaps his greatest written work, and certainly a series that paved the way for a lot of future investigations into what people with the powers of demigods might do with those powers, like the Authority. This has been collected into a trade paperback (the first printing even had some of Gruenwald’s ashes mixed into the ink) and seems to still be in print. DC is a lot better about keeping their collected editions in print than Marvel is, so if you’re interested in anything Marvel published on our list, grab it in trade now rather than later.

6. “Under Siege” in The Avengers by Roger Stern and John Buscema: This is an example of something that was collected in a trade, but I believe that trade is now out of print. However, the back issues aren’t expensive (look for #270, 271, 273-277) and you should be able to track them down without much trouble.

7. Frank Miller’s Daredevil: Marvel has quite a few of these issues collected in trade, and you should have no trouble finding them either.

8. Mark Waid’s Flash: This one hasn’t been collected, except for a few trades which appear to be out of print (so much for DC being better at keeping things in print than Marvel, although honestly, in general, they are). Waid had a very long run on this book (including some beautiful issues pencilled by Mike Wieringo), which lasted on and off from #80 of the 2nd series through #129.

9. Ben Edlund’s The Tick: I believe that the trades for his issues are out of print, but a little quick internet searching showed some available second hand, and pretty cheap. Actual back issues can be hard to find and tend to be more expensive, so securing old trades may be your best bet. They’re worth the trouble.

10. Damage Control: Sadly, this has never been collected in trade paperback, one of life’s great injustices. I’d recommend searching for back issues though, which shouldn’t be expensive. The first 4-issue miniseries from 1989 is better than the later “Acts of Vengeance” tie-in mini or the final 1991 mini.

11. Thunderbolts: The first few issues have been collected in a trade, but most trades focus on the later issues. Those aren’t bad, but they don’t break ground the way the early issues did, where you never knew where the series was going from issue to issue.

12. Grant Morrison’s Animal Man: There are three trades available which collect his entire run on the series, well worth their price.

13. The Claremont/Byrne issues of Uncanny X-Men: Marvel has published these in their beautiful Masterworks line, although those may be out of print. Original issues may be pricey, but I’m sure there are trades collecting, at the very least, their Dark Phoenix Saga.

14. Madrox Limited Series by Peter David: We decided to include this, rather than X-Factor because it clearly shows the potential that Peter David found in the Madrox character, potential which seems to have eluded every other writer to handle the character for decades before this series was printed.

15. Steve Ditko’s Dr. Strange: This could be the hardest thing on the list to snag. His issues were printed in Strange Tales and have only been collected, to the best of my knowledge, in the Marvel Masterworks line. Still, they are gorgeous and worth having.

16. Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale’s Batman work: DC has all of these issues collected in some beautiful trades.

17. Kurt Busiek and Alex Ross’ Marvels: Wait a minute! This wasn’t on the list before! Yes, it wasn’t, but Jason preferred this to Astro City and I was more than willing to concede. In many ways, the series are similar, with this also approaching the superhero through the eyes of ordinary humans. This was Alex Ross’ first mainstream work, and for those who think him overexposed now, I ask you to try and imagine what it was like when this series was first released. I remember seeing his art for the first time, and being completely blown away; if the Marvel superheroes existed in the real world, this must be what they would look like, I thought! It’s a great story too; it was collected in a trade, which looks like it may still be available certain places.

18. Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe/DC’s Who’s Who: I don’t believe DC has kept their handbook in print, but you can almost always find some version of Marvel’s available for purchase. The new hardcover editions have changed the format quite a bit, but they’re still the best way to educate yourself on newer and less-known characters. Marvel has also released the original series in their Essential format…but the black & white presentation steals a little of the glory from the pages.

19. Peter David and Todd Nauck’s Young Justice: Jason still doesn’t agree, but I’m adding it. Sadly, DC refuses to reprint most of this series, but the back issues are cheap. Find them. You won’t regret it.

20. Darwyn Cooke’s New Frontier: John can’t see the simple sophistication of this tale, but I still hold it high as an example of celebrating comics’ past while adding a modern touch. If you can afford the Absolute Edition, definitely pick it up. The added sketches and commentary are enlightening.

There you have it! Those 20 things should keep you busy reading for some time, and when you’re through, you should either appreciate superhero comics in a new light. Stop back here and tell us how right we were or start flaming us for stupid picks. We welcome either response (but prefer the former).

John’s 20 Things Every Super-Hero Comic Collection Needs

You’ll find that my list, as opposed to Jason’s, tends to hit more specific issues than Jason’s did. It’s also, of course, informed by my personal preferences. There are plenty of important comics that I simply didn’t include because I’m trying to find the comics that people will enjoy reading, and will still show the comics medium at its best and show everything of which the medium is capable. Before I get started, I want to mention that there are four things on my list (and one thing on my list of “Honorable Mentions”) that are also on Jason’s list. To avoid repetition, I’m going to mention them now, but instead of including them below, I’m going to bump some of my “Honorable Mentions” up to my main list. It may be cheating, but there are so many cool things out there that I want the opportunity to list them all (and I still won’t have room)!

So, Jason and I agree on Starman, James Robinson’s series, a true wonder of comics. The best superhero series of the modern age, this series may be unique in that it ran for 80 issues, and was only ever written by Robinson. The plotting is dense and well planned; things in the first issues pay off in the final issues. The characters sound like real people, and they grow and change as the series progresses. This is what superhero comics should be, and honestly, you could read these issues, never read another comic again, and be happy.

We also agree on Keith Giffen and J.M. DeMatteis’ Justice League run, which showed that you could be funny and still make good comics. This was particularly groundbreaking, coming out in the late 80s, when Grim ‘N Gritty was the order of the day. We also both feel that Warren Ellis and Bryan Hitch’s Authority is worth checking out, for it’s ability to show superheroes as they might act in the real world, and for it’s groundbreaking “widescreen” storytelling. We believe that one of the first series to do that was Mark Gruenwald’s Squadron Supreme, which wasn’t as adult as Authority, but first threw out some of the ethical questions that superheroes must grapple with. Finally, we both direct your attention to Robert Kirkman’s Invincible, a fine example of the quality superheroes you can find if you wander outside of the Big Two.

What about my own picks? Read on….

1. Any comics from Alan Moore’s ABC line (except Promethea): I’m sure a lot of people think us crazy for listing so few Alan Moore comics on our lists. I’m a big fan of his work, and much of it can be recommended, but it’s been recommended elsewhere, and if you’re a fan of comics, you’re going to have read Watchmen, V for Vendetta, From Hell, Swamp Thing or any of his other titles. The ABC line is important because it gave Alan Moore the chance to do lighter, brighter (but no less interesting) fare. I would highly recommend Top 10, as it’s my favorite from this line, but Tomorrow Stories is also an excellent choice, as it highlights how differently Moore can write for different artists. Give one of comic’s greatest writers a chance to show you how well he can write any genre.

2. Any Sergio Aragones/Mark Evanier Collaboration: Jason mentioned their comic Groo in his last pick, and it is a great one. However, it’s not superheroes. On the plus side, these two have done superheroes, in specials where they Destroyed DC and Massacred Marvel. They also did an interesting series for DC called Fanboy, where the titular character became intimately involved with the comics he loved so much. They’re work together is funny, and more importantly smart, and even better, it often has a great message, which they communicate without beating you over the head.

3. Roger Stern’s “Under Siege” story in The Avengers: Being the huge Avengers (and Roger Stern) fan that he is, I was amazed that this didn’t make Jason’s list. These issues, which chronicle the Masters of Evil invading and occupying Avengers Mansion, are some great superhero comics. They may not be the modern inspiration that Starman is, but they clearly show that, in the world of superhero corporate comics, you can still do great stories. The follow up to these issues, in which the Avengers must go to fight the Gods of Olympus, are just as strong. I should mention that John Buscema’s art in all of these issues is superb and helps to make them the classics that they are.

4. Kurt Busiek’s and George Perez’s “Ultron Unleashed” story in The Avengers: Normally, I wouldn’t include two Avengers stories in a list like this. I also tried to find stories that showcased different aspects of the superhero genre. This story is, like “Under Siege”, just a really great superhero comic. However, it is so great, that I couldn’t choose between it and the one above. These issues pit an Avengers team consisting of the classics (Captain America, Iron Man and Thor) with Black Panther and the newcomer Firestar, as they battle an army of Ultrons to protect our world. The panel where the tired and battered heroes finally reach the main Ultron robot, hurt but not broken, is one of the most powerful superhero panels I’ve even seen.

5. Frank MIller’s Batman: Year One: I agree with Jason that Dark Knight Returns simply no longer holds up. However, I believe that Year One does, and it’s my pick for the best Frank Miller work ever. Somehow, in the space of four issues, Miller was able to distill Batman down into his very basics, giving us a fresh and believable tale of how one man could begin the campaign that would make him an icon. You could read this story and never read another Batman tale, and know everything important about the character.

6. Thunderbolts #1: Another Kurt Busiek story (this one pencilled by the always reliable Mark Bagley). If you read this comic in a vacuum, it’s inclusion on my list may make no sense. However, if you had read it when it was first published, the mystery may vanish. Today, it’s impossible, it seems, for comics to be published without fans knowing every detail of the issue; who will die, who will return from the dead, who will be unmasked. The Thunderbolts had been teased for a few months as a new team of heroes, and while some subtle hints had been dropped that there was more going on with them then was apparent, the reveal at the end of the first issue was amazing. It also led into an incredible run which took the superhero concept and turned it on its ear, examining villains trying to become heroes.

7. John Byrne’s She-Hulk: There are a lot of great comics that John Byrne has created, but like Alan Moore, if you’re a fan than you’ve already heard of his incredible work on Alpha Flight or Next Men or Fantastic Four. I  recommend his work on She-Hulk because it again showcases a well known creator doing something different. Byrne’s She-Hulk was again, a very amusing book, although Byrne went much farther over the line than any of the other amusing books on my list. She-Hulk regularly broke the Fourth Wall, chatting with her readers; villains took breaks between their scenes. It was glorious fun, and it is a shame Byrne’s time on the book was so truncated, as no subsequent writer could pull it off as effortlessly.

8. God Loves, Man Kills: If you want a superhero comic collection, there has to be an X-Men comic in it, right? Jason recommended the Claremont/Byrne issues, and they’re wonderful. However, this graphic novel is my favorite. Written by Chris Claremont, and drawn by Brent Anderson, it details the crusade of a religious zealot to stamp out mutants. Claremont is someone who I often criticize for his stylistic writing style, but they’re not in evidence here. Like Year One, you can read this comic, and know everything important about the X-Men.

9. Mark Waid’s Flash: Mark Waid wrote The Flash for years, sometimes alone and sometimes in partnership with Brian Augustyn. Their issues introduced Impulse, explained the Speed Force, and pitted Wally West against innumerable villains. However, that’s not why I chose these issues. I chose these issues because they are the best example of a superhero story that is, in reality, a love story. Sure, there were fights and plots and worlds to save during these issues, but the heart of these stories was the love between Wally West and Linda Park. Everything else was just background noise, easily overwhelmed by the love these two shared. While most heroes have love interests, I’ve rarely seen a romance as real as this one.

10. Ben Edlund’s The Tick: Jason mentioned this when he mentioned comics from other companies, but I singled this out and included it because it is demonstrably a superhero comic. It just happens to contain a man-eating cow and ninjas. It may seem like I keep coming back to funnier examples of superheroes, but this one is the most amusing I’ve ever read. Unlike the others, which mostly tried to ground their adventures in the reality of their comic book universes, the Tick isn’t grounded at all (he lives in a world where villains have chairs for heads). I recommend the original issues that Edlund wrote and drew himself; I laugh until I cry even after multiple re-readings.

11. The Batman Adventures: Comics heroes have visited different media since the radio shows based on Superman. Some of those visits have been good, others have been bad. When the animated Batman show appeared, it was so good, that it gave something back to the medium that birthed it’s hero: this series of comics, presenting some of the best Batman stories ever published. These stories, beautifully illustrated by Mike Parobeck, show how you can tell an excellent story by stripping out the extraneous (and unnecessary) and focus on the important. Some people found the series too plain, but those people missed the boat. They were elegant in their simplicity, and the well written and drawn stories were anything but child-like.

12. Walt Simonson’s Thor: It’s hard, I believe, to do mythology in comics and keep it interesting. It’s difficult to write powerful characters and make them relatable. It’s sometimes career suicide to try and infuse mythology into superhero comics. Yet Walt Simonson made it look so easy. I am still in awe, and these are some of the only Thor comics I have ever enjoyed.

13. Peter David and Todd Nauck’s Young Justice: I suppose anyone who’s read our blog for any length of time figured I’d be including this. Comics about teen heroes have been around for years and there have been some good ones, but for my money, none have been better than this one. First of all, Peter David stayed for the entire run, and Nauck only missed a few issues (often because he was pencilling Young Justice specials or larger issues of the title), so the entire series has a coherence that so many series lack. Furthermore, Peter David was able to keep the cast relatable, keep relationships changing in believable ways, and he was able to do both amusing and deathly serious issues deftly. For a series to change tone as often as this did and not seem schizophrenic is a commendable feat, and David handled it with finesse. And may I say, while some may see Nauck’s art as cartoony, that like Mike Parobeck, Nauck was able to tell a damn good story, stripping away the unnecessary clutter that infects other artist’s work. Nauck handled the serious issues as well as he did the funny ones.

14. Kurt Busiek’s Astro City: This will be my last Kurt Busiek comic, but I had to include it. Astro City uses superheroes as a backdrop to tell stories about people; some issues the heroes have the stage, but often, they’re simply extras, as the stories talk about the regular people surrounded by these gods among men. It’s one of the most human series I have ever read, and well worth your time. I would be remiss if I didn’t mention Brent Anderson, who always does such a nice job making sure the stories look good.

15. Jack Cole’s Plastic Man: Jason mentioned comics from the Golden Age, and I said only one spoke to me. That one is Jack Cole’s creation, which has never been used as well since his death. Yes, I enjoy Plastic Man in the modern DC Universe (and recommend Kyle Baker’s series), but Cole’s Plastic Man was so ahead of its time that it deserves special recognition. Even though Cole produced these stories in the 40s and 50s, they resonate with the themes of the modern age. Yes, they’re funny, but the characters have actual personalities (rare in the Golden Age) the humor feels fresh (which is odd, considering how old they are) and the drawings seem to burst off the page.

16. Damage Control: Marvel’s series of limited series about a company that cleans up after superhero fights is such a common sense idea that I can’t believe it wasn’t done sooner. Much like some issues of Astro City, the heroes are often just the backdrop, as we explore the lives of normal humans, inhabiting a world filled with those with power. Yes, it’s funny, but there’s real characters and plots here to balance that. It’s a wonderful look at the absurdities of the superhero genre, while managing to remain a part of it.

17. Peter David’s X-Factor: I think it’s important to mention this series, particularly the first time Peter David tackled these characters alongside artist Larry Stroman, because it made one thing very clear: there are no stupid characters, or if they are stupid, you can still make them work. David took a group consisting of Havok and Polaris and a bunch of (what were then considered) stupid or unworkable characters and made them work. Madrox is, without a doubt, his strongest achievement, and the self-titled limited series that David wrote for him is also worth recommending. If someone had told me in the mid-90s that I would now consider Madrox one of the most interesting characters in superherodom, I would have considered them crazy. David also made Quicksilver interesting, a character that had always been searching for a writer who could keep his obnoxious personality intact, while making him likable. Hey, he almost even made me like Wolfsbane, but I’m not sure anyone could do that.

18. Early issues of JSA Volume 1: Geoff Johns sometimes get knocked around by critics for his love of obscure DC characters and his tendency to cannibalize DC characters and continuity for his own use. However, his early JSA issues, beautifully illustrated by Steven Sadowski, achieve something that other books should try to emulate; he successfully sells the idea of superhero legacies (where names and/or powers are passed down through generations) and reimagines some Golden Age concepts (like Mr. Terrific) for the modern age. Most of the first series was great, and the current series would be better if it wasn’t stuck with some of the plotlines running through the DC Universe, but the earliest issues are certainly worth a look.

19. Amazing Spider-Man #400: It’s struck me that Jason and I have listed precious few comics of the big names in the industry, like Spider-Man or Superman. This comic is one that is often overlooked, as it came out during the Clone Saga, and it featured the death of a character that has since come back to life. However, if you read it as it was originally written, it’s an incredibly moving story of the death of Aunt May. You finally see the chemistry and bond between her and her nephew, and her death will make you cry. It’s a shame they brought her back, as she will never get as good a send-off as the one J.M. DeMatteis and Mark Bagley gave her here.

20. Archie Meets the Punisher: If I have to explain it to you, you’ll never understand.

Cheater. Next time I’m going first so that I can look more original with my picks. Jerk.

Yes, yes, we had a few similarities and, once you read my following comments, you’ll see we had even more in common before I pruned my list. I’m stunned that the Vision and Scarlet Witch maxiseries was not on your list. That being said, I find it interesting that you also excluded all of the so-called “must haves” from your list. I think it’s an example of the media bandwagoning on comics and not really knowing what’s of interest to the true fan.

And now, since you tore my list apart and then managed to somehow call out my fandom like a common street houligan, I’m going to return the favor…

1. Any comics from Alan Moore’s ABC line (except Promethea): I have no opinion on these, because I’ve never read them. To be quite honest, aside from Watchmen and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (and an excellent Superman story), I just don’t get Alan Moore. His superhero writing doesn’t stand out to me. Sure, it may be more nuanced and intellectual, but there’s also less punching of faces which leads to a certain amount of boredom.

2. Any Sergio Aragones/Mark Evanier Collaboration: I forgot all about Fanboy, not that I think it’s essential by any stretch of the imagination. If we did a list of the Top Humor Comics, I could see Aragones and Evanier taking a spot or two. This one seems out of place on an essential superhero list.

3. Roger Stern’s “Under Siege” story in The Avengers: Yes, this one was obviously on my short list. I think that’s why I made the comment about needing to do a Top Storylines post. In retrospect, I probably should have added this. It’s my favorite Avengers arc and probably one of my favorite comic stories of all time. The Masters of Evil finally lived up to their dubious moniker.

4. Kurt Busiek’s and George Perez’s “Ultron Unleashed” story in The Avengers: Two Avengers stories? Hmm…you didn’t even mention that I didn’t have a single Hawkeye story on my list. Actually, I was going to include the first West Coast Avengers miniseries on my list.

5. Frank Miller’s Batman: Year One: I don’t really have a good reason for not including this one, except for the fact that most of the story has been portrayed on film and portions of the origin have been revamped and redacted so many times as to make my head spin. Miller weaves a solid yarn, but I prefer the grittiness of his Daredevil work.

6. Thunderbolts #1: Yes. Almost made my list too. The utter jaw-droppingness of the ending make this one of the best single issues ever printed. And I agree that it may have been the last gasp of “wait for it” timing in modern comics. I often complain about how the internet has taken the fun out of comics.

7. John Byrne’s She-Hulk: Never read it, as I can’t see myself spending money on a solo She-Hulk book. Although, i have heard great things about the humor and how Byrne broke the Fourth Wall (similar to Morrison’s Animal Man). I’m surprised Dan Slott’s She-Hulk didn’t make your list.

8. God Loves, Man Kills: Meh. This strikes me as another of those “classic” stories that just doesn’t hold up well with the passage of time.

9. Mark Waid’s Flash: This is another one that I was seriously considering. Mark Waid made Wally West a person first and a superhero second…which is something DC has had trouble doing for most of its history.

10. Ben Edlund’s The Tick: Agreed on all counts. I’m also glad you singled out the fact that the issues NOT written by Edlund just don’t match up. Was that a double negative?

11. The Batman Adventures: I briefly thought about this title, but then I realized that I have the DVD box sets on my shelf and I’d much rather watch the cartoon.

12. Walt Simonson’s Thor: When I sold off the majority of my Thor collection, these are the only issues that I kept. However, I think that just may be the nostalgic side of me. I honestly haven’t retained any info from this run. Is this the one with the frog?

13. Peter David and Todd Nauck’s Young Justice: As little as I care for the majority of DC’s pantheon, I care even less about its junior members. Whatever.

14. Kurt Busiek’s Astro City: Busiek is a great writer, I just prefer superhero books that are actually about superheroes, especially when the superheroes who do show up are just derivatives from the Big Two. I’d be more interested in throwing Marvels onto one of our lists. Even though I think it missed some marks, the fact that it tried to show the human side of an already highly established universe made more sense to me.

15. Jack Cole’s Plastic Man: Plastic Man has always been a peripheral character to me. Right after I posted my list, I thought about going back and throwing in Beck’s Captain Marvel work, but I don’t know enough about that or Plastic Man to make a sensible argument.

16. Damage Control: Definitely a consideration for me. LOVED the first series. The subsequent ones didn’t have the same “Ooh” factor for me. Taking a peek behind the scenes in a superhero-filled world, and its repercussions, was definitely a unique vision at the time.

17. Peter David’s X-Factor: I wanted to include an X-Factor run, but I just didn’t think they were iconic enough for a “best of” superhero collection list. There are so many X-titles and offshoots out there that I just basically ignored the mutant sub-genre completely. However, these were good stuff. And that Madrox miniseries is one of the highlights of the last few years.

18. Early issues of JSA Volume 1: Again, not sure. I appreciate Johns’s enthusiasm for obscure characters and legacy heroes, but a lot of the stuff he worked with was still mired down with DC’s baffling continuity. You really had to know your stuff to follow along with some of it.

19. Amazing Spider-Man #400: Seriously? Hell, I’d rather reread the What If? issue with Aunt May as a herald of Galactus. If you wanted to pick a good Spider-Man story, why not the final Kraven one?

20. Archie Meets the Punisher: Really? You couldn’t find a 20th entry with more relevance than this? I think you can definitely see some of our personalities in these picks. You seem to have gone for the intentionally humorous while I’ve tended towards the accidentally funny books. I love irony.